When Systems Stay Dysregulated: A Workplace Summit Panel on Trauma, Leadership, and Collective Care

Renae: I'd like to welcome you. Here we are. Um, it is the what day are we on? The fourth. The third day of of March in twenty twenty six. Um, and I do want to acknowledge so that none of us have any cognitive dissonance of trying to have conversations. Um, while there's really heavy stuff that's going on in the world, there's really heavy stuff going on in the world right now. And it's, um. It is just very, um. I don't know, in some respects, it it feels weird to, um, try to have these conversations when there's war, when there's violence. And on the other side of things, it feels exactly right to have these conversations. And so I did over the weekend, um, really, you know, ponder as things were unfolding. Should we continue to go forward with this? Um, is the timing exactly right? And the answer that I got was I logged on and saw how many people were registering. Um, and so I said, oh, in the midst of this, the response is, well, what do we do? Like, I can't I can't change anything there at this moment, but I can do something where I'm at. So I am just really grateful for, um, all of you, um, speakers who are, uh, have contributed and continue to contribute to this conversation and to the summit. And I know Chuck is trying to get his his video to work, and for whatever reason, it's it's not working. But, um, we will I don't know, maybe I'll come up with a puppet or something while you're talking. Chuck. Um.

Chuck: Not sure what's going on. You should just clicks in, but I can't seem to get it to. Come on. Oh, guys, for that, I'm going to keep working on it.

Renae: Okay, well, we're glad that you're here. Hi, Brooke. Glad that you're here. Um, so the order of things, um. Well, first of all, let me just leave space. Does anyone else have anything that they'd like to add to the the reality of of holding this and what's going on in the world right now?

Maria: Uh, definitely. Renae, I'd like to speak on that. And what you shared was so poignant, and it really does need to be acknowledged. And and that's part of trauma is acknowledging rather than hiding what the facts show us. And it is for many people really quite scary. And as you say, we can only. Only support where we're at. And I think that's what is the most important is I believe is doing what works for you. And how do you keep your nervous system calm? Because with everything going around the world, with our private lives and everything else, it just adds to the other layers on top and it overloads our nervous system.

Renae: Well, thank you, um, for that, Maria and, um, speakers for being here again. Um, it's it has been such a pleasure to engage with the work that you do. Um, preparing for the summit, um, going through the materials that you've submitted, you've all been so incredibly generous. And so we're going to ask another question of you today, um, about how we do this. Um, but before we do, let's go ahead and, um, introduce ourselves. And so the, uh, order of things is your name where you're calling from? Uh, your role. And, um, let's go ahead and, um, I, I know the, the whole, like, what flavor ice cream are you? Um, if you could be any flavor of ice cream right now, um, is a is seems like a silly question. And It's part of what we do. It's part of the the check in and the fact that we're human and and we want to be able to express ourselves with creativity, um, and to human together. Well, so my name is Renae. Um, I am calling from Los Angeles. I am the founder and CEO of TraumaWise. Um, I do a lot of things, know some stuff, and I am so thrilled to be able to, um, learn from all the other amazing, wise people that come into this space and place. So, um, if I was a flavor of ice cream, um, right now, I kind of, I kind of am feeling rocky Road. This answer always changes. Um, but right now it's Rocky Road because it's definitely like, there's some, like, dark, poignant pieces of of the chocolate. Um. There's some. I'm a little nutty. Um. And, um, then there's these beautiful, soft moments of marshmallow that that kind of surprise you in the midst of it. So it's, uh, it's a whole mix of things. So that's that's me, uh, in an ice cream bowl, I guess. And, um, I think, Katie, you were the first person I saw log in, and so I'd like to popcorn it over to you.

Katie: Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for inviting me here. And honored to be here with everyone. All the speakers and everyone, uh, just present, uh, or listening to the recording. I'm Katie Kurtz. I use she her pronouns. I'm joining you currently from the unceded lands of the Erie and Great Lakes nations and tribes, also known as Cleveland, Ohio, but actually soon to be moving across the country to Los Angeles. So hopefully, Renae, you and I can connect, maybe in person. Um, I am a, uh, I own and operate a global social impact consultancy specializing in trauma informed care. For over fifteen years I have been a steward of this approach. Honoring the origins of where it came from, the many origins, and currently ushering in and stewarding it forward by utilizing a livable framework that's interdisciplinary and advancing it from principles to practice. And so I work with socially conscious professionals and organizations across industries who want to focus on building cultures of trust during times of heightened trust, deficit and collective trauma that we're we're experiencing. By focusing on training, uh, certification consulting and project partnership. And, uh, I love ice cream. Uh, my childhood dream was to be an ice cream scooper, and the dream is still alive. So, uh, my go to today, um, is mint chocolate chip. There's a lot of, uh, steadiness to this flavor for me. A lot of familiarity and reliability, uh, which is what I am yearning for right now during times of life transition and a cumulative stress just from the collective, and also those surprising bites of uncertainty and, uh, edginess that come when life is lifing and systems are systemic. Um, so, yeah. Thank you so much.

Renae: Awesome. Thank you. Katie. Um, yeah. I saw your email about, uh, the, uh, because I'm on your list that you're moving and I was, I was starting to email you back and say, I'm so excited. It's going to be so much fun. Um, so, yes, I'm. I'm glad that you'll be you'll be joining us. Um. All right. Um, let's. Let's see. How about you, Maria?

Maria: Well, thank you, Renae. Uh, it definitely is an honor to be a guest on the summits that you put out, because I find them so insightful. Uh, very helpful and supportive to the people, to your audience and to everyone that's here that guest speakers. Also a pleasure meeting you. And of course, for anyone who is listening, um, thank you for being here because there is so much insight and wisdom in what we hold. I'm Maria Blahnik and I'm out of Vancouver, BC, Canada, which is unceded territory also. Unfortunately, I'm not going to pronounce because I always mispronounce everything. Um, and so I am a certified grief educator, grief guide, bereaved mom. And my aspect is how do I support the person who has experienced grief and trauma? How do you get to be in the workplace and still function and be present? Now the ice cream question has really stumped me. I was sitting here figuring out what flavor would I be? And Renae, you had such a perfect answer. Rocky road and chocolate mint. Katie I love mint ice cream and I think I'm going to go to the basics. I'm going to be a squirrel, um, or a swirl, as in chocolate and vanilla. In having the two flavors, which really is going back to basics, and I felt that's exactly what I am. I look at what's out there and sometimes we get overloaded. I'm using that word a lot overloaded. So many choices. I certainly do going to an ice cream place. And then my favorite flavor is, oh, I can't choose. Let me go between chocolate and vanilla. It's just, I think something that is comfort because we know that it's one of the the flavors that are there and the flavors don't change.

Renae: And Maria, if I could just reflect for a moment. Also, I think in the grief work that we do, we're holding both at the same time, right? I think that's actually a pretty good reflection of that. We're it's the there's we call it in our house double dip feelings that you you're holding both at the same time. So I actually love that you have those together. That's very cool. Um, hey, Chuck, I wanted to see if you, uh, want. Even if we can't see your face. We'd love to hear your voice.

Chuck: Yeah. Thank you again. And. Sorry. So it came up that there's an update that I have to put on. And I'm scared if I do that, I'm never going to make it back to y'all. So, um, so, uh, unfortunately, the blank space, uh, but I am Chuck price. I am beaming in from the central part of the state of Wisconsin. Um, and so hello to everyone. Um, and I am the owner and co-owner of Blue Collar Consulting, where we help organizations and leaders with trauma informed care implementation. Um, we've been doing this for about four, four and a half years, and we focus a lot here in the state of Wisconsin, but across the country as well. Um, and so my experience prior to Blue Collar Consulting was as a health and human services director in three different counties here in Wisconsin. Uh, last county I was with was Waupaca, where we did a complete trauma informed care transformation, which is where I pull a lot of my information, a lot of my support for leaders and organizations about what does it look like, feel like, which is one of my presentations here with TraumaWise. And so, um, really happy to be here with you all today. Favorite or the ice cream? Um, I'm pretty boring. Um, slow and steady. So I'm going to go vanilla, uh, kind of that steady Eddie, uh, go with all kinds of toppings so, you know, gets along well with others. Um, and so whether that's, uh, ice cream or, you know, my coffee order is usually black coffee. And so steady, steady and always ready for you.

Renae: Beautiful. Thank you. And those two things together actually are incredibly lovely as well.

Chuck: Yes.

Renae: Right. Um, I see that, uh, Felice just logged on, and so we will, um, spotlight her in just a moment. So I'd like to. In the meantime, um. Welcome, Brooke. And, um, again, it's your name where you're calling from. Please, if you are comfortable with land acknowledgements. Um. Go for it. It's actually really important. And usually I do it. And I didn't today because we were talking about war, which is super ironic in some respects. But you know what? Hi. Human. Um, so, um, the. So. Brooke. Uh. So sorry. Uh, Felice, it's name where you're calling from. Your title. Um, little, just a little snapshot of you. And then the question of the day is, if you were a flavor of ice cream, what would you be and why? All right. Brooke.

Brooke: Thanks. Lovely. Thank you for having me here. I'm so excited to be a part of this. Um, when I actually found your summit, I was like, oh, this is so aligned with who I am and what important conversations you're having in all areas of where trauma is showing up. So it's amazing to be here. Um, I'm Brooke, I'm an RTT therapist, a trauma healing mentor, and I help people heal from narcissistic abuse, religious trauma, and PTSD by coming home to themselves. So I really help support people in untangling that conditioning, that silence their truth to begin with, and guide them through a grounded, nervous system led roadmap back to wholeness, power, and self-trust. But really, beyond the credentials, I have true lived experience. I'm a cult survivor. An abuse survivor. Um, I've navigated spiritual control, left spiritual control, and complete identity reconstruction. So I understand not just the psychology of trauma, but also the embodied reality reality of it. So I have an approach that's different. I don't just help people cope, I help them rewire from the inside out. So, um, it's I'm very passionate about what I do in helping people shift, um, not only in their lives, but being able to lead in their relationships or as a parent and come from wholeness instead of woundedness. Um, and my favorite ice cream, oddly enough, has been Rocky Road since I was a little girl. So when you said Rocky Road, I'd already. I was like, already? So in line with that, because I was like, this has been my favorite forever. But I didn't think about it with such a interesting perspective, a different perspective, like it's hard, it's crunchy, it's soft, it's got different flavor. There's surprises, but there's also the ability to have like the recognition that you kind of like have, like the different flavors that it brings and realizing that's kind of like life, you know, it's you're you're going to have some of the hard and soft moments, and you're also going to have to be able to shift and navigate through those as well. So, um, I love the question. It makes you really think and ponder about things differently. So thank you for allowing that to, um, have had that experience.

Renae: Absolutely. I'm glad to have you here. Thank you so much. All right, fellas, welcome.

Felice: Hey. Good morning. How is everyone? Um, I am coming to you from the lands of the Nisqually and Puyallup tribes. Really honored to be here today. Um, I run a consulting organization called Really Hard to Remember. Um, and I came out of government, worked in government leadership for the last twenty four years, um, mostly in carceral settings. So high trauma for everybody involved and really came out of government wanting to walk alongside leaders who really want to not just say we do trauma informed care, but really at its foundation, start with not doing any harm. Um, and that's really difficult in some of the human services settings that I work in because of the history of one, how those entities came to be, but also what the space consists of. Right. Like you have the deep end of all systems and the the net of social services that that when no other system catches people. Um, carceral systems do, unfortunately. And if we mean to recreate that in a new way, we have to address what's right in front of us. So I walk alongside leaders to strengthen them so that they can do those hard things. Um, often those are nonprofit leaders, government leaders across the country that that really are trying to do the hard foundational work, and not just as Brooke spoke about. Right. Like, we need to actually cycle break and recreate identity for systems as well. Um, that all of these systems were built under trauma and under duress. Um, and that applies to everyone in the system, employees, people who are incarcerated. They're all everyone is not well. And so how do we strengthen that? Um, ice cream flavor is and and I love the work. I also come to the work, uh, from a community that experienced deep violence and interpersonal violence in my own life and went into service to kind of pay that forward because somebody had seen me and saved my life. Um, and so felt really, uh, like I wanted to do that for others. Um, and I don't know if I do I don't know if any of us do. We were talking yesterday, Renae. And I feel like right now, what we can do is show up in love and start to spread that like wildfire. That, like, just the kind acts every single day matter. Um, my ice cream flavor would have been Rocky Road, but that sounds redundant. Um, uh, but for all those same reasons. So I will pick bubble gum because I'm feeling very nostalgic about childhood and my children's childhoods. And yeah, it's full of surprises and doesn't make any sense. And do you chew or eat? I don't know, but I think that complexity is what I sit with right now in the world. So pleasure to be here and to to meet everyone.

Renae: Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. And, and I think, um, you know, it just the, the you hear the common thread through all of our introductions of our speakers here. Um, and it is the, the whole ethos of TraumaWise is that we come with our lived experience, um, and that the, the, the things that we're communicating about are not from a theoretical but from a practical application standpoint. Um, part of why this conversation with the speakers is about implementation is because there is a a. Conflict. There's a contradiction that comes in systems that are that are built in theory instead of practice. Often it's, it's we're coming from a, um, an idea of what could be, but it's often a one lens approach or a one lens solution. It's been voiced by, uh, traditions that do not necessarily reflect the people that are being supported or interacting with that particular system. And so to to have many voices, um, say this is here's the truth of experience and here's how these these things have impacted me. And I have this, this continue to have that conversation with people of that intent and impact are two different things. And that we want to, um, continue to grow in curiosity and openness to realize that, um, our, our approach and our lens is ours and it's limited unless we are continually actively seeking to be in proximity with other people's experiences and perspectives. And so this conversation is bringing together people from all different parts of the world to say, what? What are you noticing? Let's hear from your wisdom of what gets in the way. When we try to implement trauma informed practices in, in workplaces. And, um, this is different than education and it's different than, um, in the home and it's different than in church settings and ministry settings. Um, the workplace, um, is very focused on production consumption model. It is not focused necessarily usually on nurturing, on growth, on real development. If there's focus on development, it is meant to affect Effective bottom line somewhere. And so it's a it's a pretty tricky conversation because there's already a contradiction in what the goal of the organization is as to what does it mean to be trauma informed. Often, right, because of how things have been set up. So, um, the question or we're going to talk about for the next thirty four minutes is, um, what um, what are the barriers that you have seen, um, in implementing trauma informed practices in work spaces, workplaces? Um, hi, Xenia. I see that you're here. Um, if we can pause for just a moment on that question so that we can include you. It's so good to see your face. Hello.

Xenia: Hello, all. So happy to be here. Sorry for jumping on. Um, a little late. It has been hectic Navigating these spaces and everything that's going on currently with all the things happening. Um, so yeah, I'm happy to be here. And thanks for pausing. Um, and allowing me to just say hello to all these phenomenal women that's on the call right now.

Renae: And and, Chuck, you can't see Chuck's not a woman, but. Yeah, all these women in. Chuck.

Xenia: Chuck, I'm so sorry.

Chuck: Hello?

Xenia: I didn't see your photo there. So thank you as well. I'm so sorry, Chuck. No problem.

Renae: Um. Um. So, Xenia, if you could just tell everybody for a moment, um, where you're calling from, uh, your role and, um, just take a just a minute. And, um, the question of the day is, if you're a flavor of ice cream, what would you be and why? And then we'll head into the question of implementation.

Xenia: Okay. Um, so yes, I'm calling from freezing cold Brooklyn, New York right now. Um, winter is not letting up on us. I am a social behavioral scientist and trauma informed leadership development expert. Uh, and a lot of the work I do is geared to my mission of creating more trauma informed workplace so that leaders are not burning out their staff members, um, and staff members are not pulling their teeth out on their way to work because of the, um, the trauma that's currently in within the workforce and in the office and spaces. So I'm all about creating safer spaces because safe looks different to each and every individual. And, um, my favorite. Well, if I had to be a flavor of ice cream right now, I would be Rocky Road because I feel like I'm continuously on up on the up and down battle of navigating so many different things, whether it's health, whether it's life, whether it's work, there's just so many different things that I'm navigating. So right now I feel like Rocky Road.

Renae: What? You don't know, Xenia, is that that is the answer of four out of seven people on the panel. So you are in good company. And I think it just does speak to, you know, also little sign of the times and, um, who is drawn to, um, deeply going into this work. Um. Right. So thank you so much for being here. And, um, what we'll do for the the question is, um, if you either just raise your physical hand if you're on screen or the raise hand feature, uh, when you are ready to share and respond in the question, uh, or respond to the question, um, please feel free to do that just so we can, um, pick up on each other's cues across the, the interwebs. So, um, let again, that question is, um, what What are you noticing are the barriers to implementation of trauma informed practices, policies, procedures in the workplace setting. Katie.

Katie: Yeah. Happy to start. Uh, I think something I see across the board working in across every industry and discipline as well as, you know, uh, nationally and globally are some of the same things. So we're at this interesting edge or threshold of the trauma informed movement where most people are kind of stuck. We're kind of stalling. Uh, we have, you know, most notably, people utilize the US based SAMHSa model as best practice. Um, however, SAMHSa, you know, is infiltrated right now. We you know, it's it's dicey and, uh, tricky to navigate and trust with an institution. Nor should we rely on an institution for an approach that is not rooted in, um, what it actually is. But people, you know, the SAMHSa model has done a great job of telling us why and what it is, but not how to do it. And that was on purpose. Um, but most people are stalling because a, we're finding ourselves at a precipice in this movement where we don't have shared language and understanding. People are still functioning from different definitions of trauma, which makes sense, right? We're human, we're complex, we're non binary. It's it's a lot. Um, but unfortunately a lot of folks are utilizing an outdated definition or still thinking trauma is this experience or event not our individual human response which creates this distance or othering. Uh, and we know in population studies have affirmed that virtually all people on this planet have or will have experienced trauma in their lifetime. And when I think of trauma, I'm also including grief, burnout, moral injury, stress, resilience. It's all in the same umbrella. And we all have very different functioning ideas of what trauma informed even even means. Um, and so that's one of the first things. And the second thing is a lot of times people are assuming and I see this a lot actually, from the Health and Human services and clinical field, that trauma informed means trauma responsive. The people who are actually addressing people's trauma, which so many of my colleagues here, um, do and we we have to differentiate these different levels of competency that trauma informed is an approach and practice that should be delivered, uh, when any type of trauma focused support should be delivered in a trauma informed way. But trauma informed itself is not an intervention. Uh, it's not a clinical practice. And so we're already kind of we're we're in a different kind of stew of understanding of without that shared language and understanding. And then we're at the stall of, okay, how do we do it? Um, there's a sense of urgency because of the collective trauma. Um, the continuous systemic trauma, uh, that's happening, the accumulation from the historical trauma ongoing from the pandemic. We need this, and we know it works. It's a proven, reliable approach that evolves as we evolve, that is rooted in so many origins. Um, but we're lacking the strategy, um, principles alone, as Doctor Barnes says, like nobody has ever said, this is a safe space. And people felt safe, right? We have safety is meant to be like, show me. Like we need to see it. Principles are great, but if there's no action, um, they're just nice words. So we're we're seeing this time, which gives me a lot of hope of people finally waking up saying, okay, yes, we want to do something. We're seeing the rise of people utilizing, you know, trauma as a buzzword and trauma informed care as a trend, which it's like, we've been here a while. It's it's not, uh, welcome to the fold. Uh, but I think this is an exciting time where we're seeing a level of readiness we haven't seen before. But now we need frameworks. We need, um, open pathways for people to join this movement and then do it actively. Do it actively apply. And so where I see a lot of challenges, I'm also seeing a lot of opportunity. Uh, we just need those, um, that shift and that way to welcome people and honor those different levels of readiness, um, and give people actual strategies and skills to put into everyday practice.

Renae: Thank you so much, Katie. I really appreciate that. And, um, the, uh, um. Oh, good. And you know how to lower your hand because I was like, I don't know how to do that. So, um, I'm sure there's a button somewhere. Um, so that I think that was a wonderful way for us to, to start that conversation. And so we're just going to go through as people are raising their hands and continue that conversation. Um, Brooke, you were next. Let's hear from you.

Brooke: Um, well, I think Katie touched on a point that I think is really important. Not everybody has the language for it, so we don't have enough awareness about it. So we can all talk about these things because we've been trauma survivors and we've had to somehow pivot and understand trauma on a deeper level, because it was our lived experience. We were in so much pain and suffering. At least I was. I had to say, how do I fix this problem? A lot of people don't even have the ability to articulate that, that this is the problem. They're just operating from survival. And that's the reason why my, um, talk was about survival to sustainability, because so many people are still living from that space of survival. They don't even have the ability to access the fact that they are traumatized. And all of us are in some way trauma traumatized or wounded because it's just our human experience. So I think that this what we're doing today is really important, obviously, in getting the that language out to people, getting that awareness to help them see that, okay, this is what's going on. Um, because we operate from this ability to think that we have to produce, we have to keep going no matter what, that we now see, I mean, most women I'm sorry, Chuck, women are a big you know, they're the biggest probably people that are the people pleasers, the foreigners, because we have felt like we have to be the overfunctioning in relationships and as mothers, um, and in the workplace. And it's exhausted us. And this is why I talk so much about burnout, because this was very much my story. I thought that if I didn't overachieve, that didn't mean I was worthy. So I had to keep that overachieving. I had to keep pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing until ultimately I kept hitting that wall, right? That burnout. My body was like, whoa, I can't do this anymore. Like, hello? Listen to me. So I think the biggest piece about this, it's not about intellectualizing trauma. It's not about you cannot. It's about connecting to the body, listening, teaching people to understand that your body is giving you messages every day. We have just learned to disconnect from it. We've been taught to disconnect from it. We've been taught to continue to be, um, absorbing everything that's coming in. Right. We're seeing everything that's happening right now in the world. And what are we doing? We're being bombarded. Our nervous systems are being bombarded by all this information, and it becomes too much. We collapse, our nervous system collapses, we shut down, it becomes too much. And that's what we're doing in lots of areas of our lives. And when Intel people start to see this and understand that the body knows the way the body is leading you constantly. And when we learn this component of nervous system of trauma work and being trauma informed, then we're able to actually have real conversations because we're able to teach people how to reconnect to this part of ourselves that already knows the way.

Renae: Thank you. Thank you. Brooke. Chuck.

Chuck: Oh, yes. Hello, everyone. Um, so I'm just going to say right off the bat that, um, I feel like I could just sit here and listen to you all day long. And so I'm really glad to be with, like, my people. Um, so, um, I think in terms of, like, implementation, for me, it's like, I don't, I don't think especially like leaders that I work with in the health and human services world, um, and other organizations, I think, maybe don't always understand the layers. It's not just getting a training and now we're trauma informed or even a certificate, and now we're trauma informed. Um, but it's all of these different components that make it work within an organization. And so even going back to my own earlier experiences as a director of Health and Human Services, implementing and working on that transformation, uh, my whole thought is a good one. I thought, like, you know, we want to make sure that we are serving, uh, the folks in our community the best possible ways. And so when we first started bringing trauma informed into our organization, that was my goal. And it took about two seconds to realize, like, oh, not only the people that we're serving, but our staff as well, you know? And so then understanding, uh, from the workplace scenario, like, we, you know, we had about one hundred and thirty, one hundred and forty staff and we found out early on through anonymous surveys that our staff, thirty four percent of our staff had four or more aces. And so that was a bit of a now I call it a dull moment. I used to call it an aha moment, but it's like we have to understand, you know, that our folks that are coming and doing the work also have experienced traumas and adversities. And how does that look when they're working with folks that have traumas and adversities? And so we started really early on implementing some of these phrases to help ourselves stay in line with, like, you know, what does it look like, feel like? What does it look like, feel like when people approach our organization in all of our services were at the courthouse. And so there's so many barriers to even say that I'm going to go for mental health. It's going to be at the courthouse. The courthouse is not full of warm and fuzzies for folks for one. And so if I pull up and actually go through the front door of the courthouse, and I make it to the second floor where Health and Human Services is, what does it look like for you, like for folks? And so just getting leaders to understand, like all of those steps are a piece of the puzzle. And so again, not just the training, not just one unit or one person. And so um, kind of our catch phrase through it all, again, to help us kind of stay in that mindset was, you know, it's not a thing you do. It's how you do your thing. And so it's not a checkbox. But what is it? What does it feel like for folks as they come in for service? What does it feel like for our staff, um, as they try to do this work? And so I think when people, the people that I've worked with have struggled with the implementation piece because I think they all of a sudden they start to see this as a much bigger thing, like, oh my gosh, like, this is way bigger than I thought. I thought we were just going to do this training. Um, and then we can do some little things as change, like, you know, paint the walls or, you know, redo our lobby and make it feel welcoming, and that's good. But if you're really looking through the lens of trauma informed care, you start to see all these other things around change and it becomes systemic, like, what are we doing? And so changing the lobby is great. Making it feel great. But what about the child welfare system? I think there's some things we could do to really think about the practice there. What if we never placed another child with a stranger. You know, it's trying to say, like, you know, once we see that lens of or through that lens of like, know better, do better, I think there's a moral obligation. I think people start to get like, oh my God, this is way bigger than I thought. And trying to help to calm folks for one and help them, you know, take on that elephant one bite at a time thing. So that's my initial ramble.

Renae: Thank you so much, Chuck. Appreciate that.

Xenia: Yeah. So I.

Xenia: I just was going to jump in. Um, you all said some really powerful things and a lot of things that I align with as well. I would say in my experience, um, from research as well as just, um, navigating the spaces of training leadership in this space when it comes to implementation, there's there's a couple of different things that they face, um, fear being one of them. Um, it's with everything that's going on within the current administration and the rollbacks and the red tape and all the things that's happened. Fear of losing funding, fear of, like, this is too much for me to take on. Where do I start? If I if I start this, then what happens now? Um. Is my job going to be in jeopardy? You know, there's so many different aspects of fear that comes into play for, um, for many organizations, um, especially those who are seeking, uh, funding for the people who make decisions, who don't believe that there is trauma in the workplace. Um, which leads me to that lack of acknowledgement that there is trauma in the workplace. And when you think about the trauma, you think about all the things that Katie mentioned, whether it's grief, whether it's, um, mental illness, whether it's health, it's there's just so many different layers to it. It's not a one picture, one cookie cutter thing when you think about trauma, but then it's also that fact of understanding that it's not a you thing. It's not a me thing. It's a social impact thing. This affects everyone. When someone comes in to the workplace and they're, um, just rude and nasty and just bring different types of energy and makes the day hard. They don't make the day hard for themselves. They make the day hard for everyone that's around them, like no one. And I also don't believe that no one wakes up and just say, you know what? Today I'm going into the office and I'm going to ruin everyone's day, you know? So there's so many different aspects of things could have been happening at home or something could have happened on the way to work. You just never know. So it's that being able to give the space and grace in between, um, but then also equipping individuals and having strategies in place and policies in place that allows, uh, employees and even leadership members to have somewhere or some understanding of asking for help and what that help and support looks like. Um, and then also saying, you know what, maybe today is a day that you need to work from home, because I'm recognizing that you just don't seem like yourself. So having those things in play, um, would be helpful for implementation. But then there's also the aspect of the disassociation, uh, the it's not me or if or if I name this thing and I say it, then how are people going to look at me? And it's going to and that aligns with then the shame of saying, like, I'm experiencing something or recognizing that multiple staff members are experiencing different things. And then as a poll, instead of trying to support the overall collective, um, sometimes you have those who just worry about the what are people going to think about me as the leader of someone, um, whose team is struggling, or whose team who has, um, who doesn't have the language of what trauma informed is? And again, trauma informed looks different to different people because what you identify as trauma, someone else may not identify that experience as a traumatic experience. So as Katie and and and Brooke both said about the shared language. Um, it's a matter of stop waiting for someone else to start it. We just have to start. We have to start from somewhere. There's no perfect place to start. We just have to start because that surface level of just checking the box of, okay, I'm going to do this one training. And they're not going to say, yes, we're trauma informed or, or we're implementing something that's trauma informed. And then I move on from there. Um, the awareness is not enough. The action is is important. And training up and training out and bringing others in. So who actually have the expertise that can give you the tools that you continue to use? That's how we're going to move the needle forward, forward as we begin to dismantle and get individuals out of that, constantly operating from a survivor mode, because when we don't see the small wins or acknowledge the small wins, that's where we stay. We stay stuck in survival mode. So that's just a little bit of what I've what I'm constantly seeing. Um, and the work that I'm doing to dismantle that, uh, one organization at a time. But we all have our, we we all have our work cut out for us.

Renae: Thank you. Xenia Appreciate you. Please.

Felice: I think, um, I think a lot about violence, disruption and the cycle of violence and just our world as part of that. And we know that there has to be a clear cycle breaking and that disruption and that reckoning with the harm we've done historically in spaces. And I think that's where you start to get the most resistance is acknowledging that deep harm and being able to sit in the IC that is foundational and the soil, because we can keep putting like the new thing on top of it. That does not change the experience. So as long as large systems don't reward vulnerability, don't reward like, uh, authenticity. We have policies about control in many of these spaces. We don't behave predictably or reliably. And I think most notably since post-pandemic. Right? I run and have run twenty four over seven operations. People didn't go home for the pandemic. They worked. And then we worked short staffed for multiple years. So that cumulative toll on everyone in this space and kind of the moral injury of everyone went home. But we stayed there, added on. And then really, the trauma response that I've observed in those populations, uh, of employees as well as those who are incarcerated or served by human services, has been the lack of ability to embrace complexity. So that makes this even more difficult to implement. That like, I can't sit with complexity because I got to pick a side. It's either this or this. And people are really complicated. They're not either a trauma survivor or a like, that's not a thing. And you have to be able to talk about the complexity there. Um, and I always think back to a female incarcerated, um, woman years ago said to me, we had brought in a prior leader, had brought in trauma informed care. This was like twenty ten. Um, and they did this thing where they taught all the staff, you should feel bad for the women because they have trauma. And the staff bucked up and were really offended because they also had trauma, because this is Human Services, right? It created a dynamic that wasn't great. And what the woman said to me is, you guys are providing all this therapy. and the people who are supposed to care for us aren't well. And so I'd rather not like. You're tearing open my vulnerability. And then I walk into a unit where I get yelled at, and that's worse. And I know she's suffering, too. So we're just suffering together. So how do we get into the soil and really do that change? And I think it's really hard. It's it's because you have to make, in my experience. Right. Thousands of people see like my work wasn't perfect. And I do think that people who, like most of us who are in trauma mastery, came to this work through like our own experiences and likely did the work because of trauma mastery. Trauma survivors are more adaptable because they weren't used to the ground staying put, right? Like, I just changed because I never expected it not to change. Um, not everyone experiences the world that way. And so that reckoning, if you've never done it, is really scary and and you know, I'll, I'd rather be in the water. In my experience, what I've observed in some folks is they'd rather be in the water than grab a boat dinghy that they don't know, because they don't know what, that they know what this is going to result in. And so I've seen all of those things, and I think it's about being slow, steady, starting with the really ugly foundational stuff that you don't see for a while, like really digging into not doing harm before you start adding training and programming and like just really dismantling the structure that holds up the harm in the first place. And it's like buying stupid tires for your car. Like it's not pretty, it's not rewarding. You're not going to get kudos nationally, but it matters because the people served in these systems experience it negatively. If you don't do that right, that's what I got.

Renae: Thank you. Felice. Maria.

Maria: There are so many valid points. Um, and we've all addressed the aspect of trauma is such a huge umbrella and encompasses so much. And everyone's trauma is going to be different than someone else's is when we're in a workplace. The workplace, of course, is looking at their bottom line. What's the profit? Am I still making a profit? Are the employees going to be taking advantage if I offer anything? Are they are they going to be burnt out? Do I have to, you know, all the complexities of what a business runs to. And Felicia, you hit on the right thing. A lot of times, the managers and the CEOs who are supposed to be implementing have their own trauma. And so when you have your own trauma, at times it's how can you then offer an environment For your workers. And in some ways, that's what I see, is that how can you sort of do a harmony? I sometimes when we say implementation, implementation means here's the policy, here's the checklist. Have I ticked all the boxes? And sometimes we have to go back to being humanity. Humanity says we're different. We all have unique personalities. Each day that I come to work, I'm going to be showing up different because I don't know, as someone else said, the ride to work. Did something happen at home? Did all of these things. And so at times, I mean, I know I came up through my own experience. I came up with an acronym with Using Care in the sense of how do we offer compassion in a workplace? And compassion doesn't mean that you're sitting with someone going, please tell me everything that's happening to you. No, compassion just means I see that you're hurting. I may not know what to do, but I want to make this into a safe environment where you do not feel that you're being more harmed. And acknowledging it means just acknowledging where the person is without judgment. How many times do we have people, either our workers or our managers? We're judging them and we don't know what they are experiencing. And a lot of times, as we have to release what our prejudgments are and we have to make room to exhale, a lot of times our tensions are in our bodies. We're walking around as if we're holding our breath. And when someone comes up and pokes us that breath when we exhale it, it's like you're getting my whole demeanor of everything that I've ever put up with. And so at times it's like, what are we offering the workers in way of how can they feel safe in this environment that they're working in? And the same thing with the managers knowing that they are looking at they have double they have to be on top of the workers, it seems. And they're getting flack from the CEO of Where's the Profit? And it's kind of like, how do we build this harmony that we can do both with and keeping humanity in place, because we know that humanity is made up of different personalities, different cultures, uh, where we grew up, our experiences. And so I know it's it's daunting. And I personally feel this is one of the reasons why things don't get done. It's so daunting that people are like, oh, this is too much work. Let's simplify it and get it to like. Like the ice cream flavor. I'm into basics.

Renae: Thank you Maria I appreciate that and I appreciate that. Um, the, uh, continual lens, if we think about all of the different, um, perspectives that have come together on this panel, um, what we heard was we heard macro, we heard mezzo, and we heard micro. And I think that that speaks to the reality is none of us hold all of those lenses at the same time, all the time. Right? And so our approach is going to be sometimes it is going to be that how do we make a shift, how do we implement it could be in that one on one, one to one conversation. It could be in that really micro space. It could be in the mezzo space of. How is it that I'm going to run my team meeting? It could be in the macro of how are we writing policies, or are we? How are we lobbying for change? Um, but and even in that, there are so many different ways that those different levels that we might approach it. And so it's the, the richness of, um, recognizing and knowing a little bit of what is my role right now, um, what are where what capacity do I have, what capacity do I have in this moment? And so there have been times when I've had capacity for the one on one, and there are times that I have not had capacity for the one on one. And so it's part, part of that, um, repair work that I do is repair work with me to, to be compassionate, to be kind, to be thoughtful, to allow myself to be human and just to screw up and say, it's okay, here's what we're going to do. You know, like, we we got this, we're humaning. And because as I'm doing. Extending that to myself, I don't have fear to extend that to other people. And a lot of the times what what I'm seeing is that the trouble with implementation is the driver of the in charge people is often fear based. Um, so part of the disarming of the fear, um, I use the, the concept of chasing the why, I wonder why I wonder why they are responding that way. I wonder why they're reacting that way, I wonder. I'm being curious and open and recognizing that, um, whom? Whomever the person is in front of me, I if I don't understand or if I would have a different response, I want to respond with curiosity and say, I wonder what's going on. Instead of labeling, instead of othering, instead of separating myself because we're not separate. We are so incredibly interconnected. And coming back to that, that human place of saying, you know, I, I, I preached Thomas, um, in on one of the days says I'm not the, um, my worth is not the sum of my worst days like I am, I am, I'm I am more than that. Um, and and who I am on my in my worst and may be what people remember of me, but that's not who I the fullness of who I am. And so we're talking about that we as human beings are complex, even in our own systems. And so finding your people that you can experience felt safety with. Right. So the speakers in in this panel, what what I'm seeing is this sense of relief a little bit as people are like, oh, these are my people. I'm hearing people who are are saying things and helping me to tell the continue to tell the truth of what I'm experiencing, right. So that I don't feel like I have to gaslight or protect myself or mask, but that we have this, this opportunity to tell the truth and then to hold that it's it is complex. It comes from all these different levels. And it's a little. And so we're telling that particular part of the truth to and that it's a slog. Um, and when I say that, I say that with, with love, it is it is absolutely a slog. I was talking with to, um, with Elise about this yesterday. Um, and I'll ask the panel how many people here, uh, watched and or, uh, the, the Star Wars, uh, series. And it was it is my favorite by far of any Star Wars anything ever. And I remember when the first season came and I was like, this is the slowest freaking pacing and I'm not sure. And it took me like three episodes. And then I was like, oh, wait a minute. And I started to feel this rhythm of the of the, the the pregnant pause, the the the dissonance, the disconnect of. Wait a minute. We're starting to tell the truth of the things that we are experiencing and everything we were told about the things that are good or things are a certain way we're seeing and experiencing very different messaging. And that dissonance grew in that friction grew. And by the time we got to to the end of Andor, I mean, I don't know how many of us like, then went and watched the movie right after the last episode because we're like, I need to, I need to to finish a cycle here. But what a beautiful representation of the truth of what it takes to actively change systems that are broken. It is a behind the scenes, step by step slog. It is not glorious. It is not. Um. And we have those. I always say, like the yahoos are standing on the podium at the end with the medals in, in the first Star Wars movie, and you're like, you got here three days ago, and we've been doing this for hundreds of years, like hundreds of teeny tiny, painful steps. But no one sees the effort. And so I want to reflect to you all that I honor that the effort that every person who's looking around and saying, I'm getting tearful, um, that is saying it's not okay. Things are. We can't let things stay status quo. We have to take a step. And we've all been in that overwhelm of I don't know what to do and it's okay. It's okay that you have that moment of overwhelm. It doesn't mean that something is wrong with you. It means that something is exactly right with you because you're telling the full truth of how complex this is. It's really complex, and my encouragement is that we continue to find those people who can reflect to us. Yeah, this is complex. You're not alone in it. Because in when we at the heart of trauma is this big lie that we're all on our own, it's our fault. It's never going to end. And when we come together to have these conversations, we. We're reflecting the truth to each other instead of like, you're not alone. It is not forever. It feels like it's forever, but it's not forever because we're here together and we're one step at a time. We can make these changes. And so if you came to this panel to, um, as a, as a listener or a watcher to, to say like, okay, what are they going to say about implementation? We're going to get the, the scoop. Here's the scoop. It's it's us coming together and continuing to have these conversations and listening and learning from each other and and taking one tiny step at a time together with kindness for ourselves and for others. And so I want to thank each of our panelists for sharing from your experience, from your from your heart, from your knowledge, from your wisdom. Um, truly, truly, it's going to take all of us together. So thank you so much for being here. Um, and, uh, as we head on out, I'm going to ask one last question and thank you for letting us go just a little bit over time, everybody, um, what is one thing that you would like people to walk away with from this conversation, that like, thing that you heard that like, resonated with you or you were reminded of that you can hold on to. Thanks, Maria. Um, that you're that that is going to be a takeaway for you that you think would be helpful for other people as well. And so we're just going to go in the same order that we did for the, the check ins. We'll start with Katie, if that's okay.

Katie: Uh, just the consistent everyday reminder. We're human first, helper second. And we can't say we're trauma informed. We have to be it.

Renae: Beautiful. Thank you. Brooke.

Brooke: Um, I would say what was really awesome is that we. It's the small, micro moments of making systemic change in reminding ourselves that, like, first of all, we can't take on the whole world, right? But, like, I think a lot of us are like, oh my gosh, we want to see change and we just want to go out there and get after it and do it, which is beautiful to have that, but to realize that again, we are human, but doing these small moments that is creating change, right? Everything is a ripple effect, and just honoring that and knowing that how we show up is, is here to to help people see that in each of us.

Renae: Thank you. Chuck.

Chuck: Yeah. Ditto to Katie and Brooke and just that continued notion of it's not a thing you do, it's how you do your thing. Um, and I would always say to bring the human back into human services, but really to bring human into the workplace.

Renae: Beautiful. Thank you. Felice.

Felice: I really loved your reminders of curiosity and staying in that space of, like, being more inquisitive and really embracing that complexity. Thanks for everyone being here and giving so much of themselves this morning. I also think making these spaces and doing less better is really important right now. Thank you.

Renae: Xenia.

Xenia: Yes. Just echoing what everyone said, I feel like we're all on the same space of recognizing, like, whew, I'm not alone in all of this craziness. And so if I had to sum it up, I would definitely say, um, just understanding that we're not meant to lead from our wounds. We're meant to lead from our wisdom. Um, and that, you know, that goes into understanding that the importance of grace and and space.

Renae: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much again to all of our speakers. I'm so grateful for you for the work that you are doing, but more importantly, just for you being you, um, showing up and giving of yourself and being present. Um, super grateful for that. So thank you everybody, and we'll see you the next time. Alrighty. Bye bye.