Who Are You, Anyway? Practicing Humility in the Neighborhood (with Kyle Blake)

Renae: Well, hey, Kyle, I am so glad that you are joining us here for the first ever TraumaWise Ministry Summit. Welcome.

Kyle: Thanks, thanks for inviting me to be a part of this. It's been a journey I've journeyed with you for multiple years now. And a journey of learning, a journey of discovery, both of my own stuff and the stuff around me. And and that trauma is a real thing. And that we really need to learn how to walk with individuals who have been traumatized in a variety of different areas and ways and how we can care for those and help heal through relationship as we journey along being trauma informed and understanding the importance of this, this topic and issue.

Renae: Awesome. Well, I'm so glad you said yes. And that we found a good way to to come together. And you've got lots going on in your world. And so thank you for making the time. And I'm I'd love for you to introduce a little bit about yourself. Briefly for everybody who's joining us. Personally.

Kyle: My name is Kyle Blake, I am a I am the associate pastor at Bethany Lutheran Church in Long Beach, California. And so before that I was the sole pastor of The Gathering with a church in downtown Long Beach. We have since merged and so that's why I am now the associate pastor of a different church in the same city. Anyway, I have a wife and two children. We live in North Long Beach now. And from Houston, Texas originally so if you see me sipping on an Astros mug, that's why I'm sure all of my Dodger friends are gonna be booing you while you do that all you're in Dodger blue. So there is my Astros hat but I thought I would spare, you know, traumatizing to many people like the viewing this today. So have have over the last eight, nine years gotten involved in working with formerly incarcerated and gang impacted individuals through actually the neighborhood that we used to live in, in downtown Long Beach. And yeah, and so I've been on this trauma journey both personally, my both my boys are actually adopted. And so there's there's some stuff with that. And then also in the community that is around us, so.

Renae: Well, thank you. I'd love to hear a little bit about your pastoral ministry journey. And the moment that you recognize that maybe the approach that you might have been the might have learned in seminary or from someone else's example. Probably doesn't work and across the board In all spaces and places, what was that? What did that moment look like?

Kyle: Absolutely. So short story medium, or long story shorter, I don't know. I was raised in the suburbs of Houston, Texas, my dad was a police officer. It was a pretty middle class. I mean, to be honest, opinion, middle middle class white world that I grew up in, went to private school and, and, you know, kind of, I guess, had the naivety of assuming that, hey, everybody was kind of raised like me, right? You know, it is what it is. And so went to my undergrad, got an undergrad degree, started in youth ministry was in youth ministry for about 15 years, primarily working with kids who were middle middle upper class, and then went to seminary and finished my seminary degree and got a job in downtown Long Beach. And so approached ministry the same way that I had approached it, you know, for the last 15 years before I showed up here, and, you know, was trying to, we had an after school program, so I was working with some of the kids and I was like, man, some of these kids are just like wildin' out, like, what is going on here. You know, a lot of the things that we did didn't really work, in the same way in walking alongside the community, realizing that man, that the approach that we had, that I'd used in previous context was not going to work. Actually, one of the things that changed my life was when I met a kid, who, upon meeting him, he looked at me and his first words, were, Who the f, I'm editing for content, but Who the F are you, just another Christian who's gonna come into my neighborhood and tell me how much Jesus loves me and leave? And I was like, Huh, that's different. You know, and starting to realize that, that some things aren't necessarily the way that I've always thought they should be or could be, and ended up hearing through the after school program about this trauma presentation, and showed up to the trauma presentation, it was like holy cow, this is this is a it's not a different world, it's just a different way to different lens to look at the world that is unnecessary lens and the work that we're doing. Now, I know, you might ask me some of my personal stuff, because it was at that initial training that I went to, that I also sitting that my oldest at the time was about six or seven, and displaying a lot of ADHD issues, a lot of kind of defiant, oppositional defiance disorder stuff. And as I was listening to the presentation, realize, holy cow, this is my child as well. And, you know, I was raised in a home that my father was the authoritarian, and that were the those were the tools that I had given in my for parenting in my toolbox. Those are the tools that I were using I was using at the time with my child, all legal, right. But realizing that the tools I had in my toolbox, were not going to be sufficient, not only for the ministry outside of my home and church, but also the ministry and care and parenting inside of my home as well.

Renae: Absolutely, and I and I appreciate the the viewpoint of this is what this is what I was given from what I experienced, because we're talking about shifting our framework. It's never meant with the with lens of shame or blame on my end, like that we were doing the best that we can with the information that we have, and the resources we have in front of us. And there may be times that we absolutely have had the information and we and we know it, but something will we'll forget about it will will default. i How many times have I defaulted to my family of origins of strategy and approach to behavior when I've been sick, tired, overwhelmed, right? Well, we will default to it. So it's this continual practicing of a brand new language, and embodying what comes with that language.

Kyle: What's been helpful for me in this journey is realizing that every one of us were born with a toolbox. And we're all given tools to deal with life. Those tools are supposed to be given to us by our parents, by our community, by the schools we go to. And, and for some of us, we were were given a complete toolbox. And for some of us we were given one tool to try and do life with. And and so you In in different areas, we're given different tools, whether that be reacting to something, whether that be parenting, and and we grow to know and love the one tool that we are given or a small box of tools that we're given. And we use those. And then hopefully, at some point during life, we realize we'll learn and grow in our toolbox, right and learn new tools. But we typically always go back to that same old tool, right? But like you're saying, when we're stressed or tired or sick, you know. And so it's knowing acknowledging that we have the tools in the toolbox. And we have to be very cognizant about learning to use the tools that we were given in order to help other people gain tools as well for dealing in life and in relationship.

Renae: Well, and I think also replacing, in some respects, because I'm thinking like to go back to the toolbox analogy. You can use a hammer on a screw, it's gonna damage it'll, it'll get, it'll get the, the screws into the thing, right, it's gonna damage and it won't stay, and it's not the right fit. Right. So it'll it'll get the job done. Except longterm, it won't. Right?

Kyle: Yeah. And I think that that's acknowledging that different scenarios need different tools.

Renae: Absolutely.

Kyle: You're doing some construction on my house, I had to get I went out and bought a ton of tools, right? And for some of them, I'm like, Well, what is this one, you know, I have the tool in my toolbox, I just have to learn how to use it and realize that it's really helpful in certain scenarios where I would have used something else, you know, I thought would work better, but actually, you know, I was doing damage. So real quick story, I tell stories, so you have to cut me off. You know this about me. But real quick story, I had to pull my dishwasher out because it broke. And I found out that the dishwasher was about a quarter inch lower than the tile because of the way that they tiled the floor before I got here. And so ended up deciding that I'm going to use my angle grinder to get this dishwasher out. The angle grinder cuts and mangles and chops. It did the job the dishwasher is out. Right? But we have I mean, it was broke already, but we have completely ruined the dishwasher by trying to get the job done. There therein lies trauma, right? We can work with a child, we can work in a ministry experience. And you know, and somebody might be distracting because they're talking all the time. Because they're they're doing attention seeking behaviors, because they don't, they haven't been had attention. And we yell and shut it down. And they're quiet. It has done the job. Yes and Amen. They're quiet, we have gotten what we wanted to get accomplished. However, the not only the relational damage, but the traumatic damage that we have done then, in that, that scenario is one that could be multiplying down the road where you end up like my friend, you know, who I met in the park? Who the FPU. Right? This is what how you been how you or the ministry entity that you represent has been traumatizing me for a long time. And finally, I'm fed up with

Renae: Yeah, and I appreciate the sorry, I appreciate the tag at the end of what he said is, you're gonna come in and do this, and then you're gonna leave. And I think that that's an incredibly important piece. When we're talking about ministry, that there's a there is a relationship that requires us to be in relationship. I know that I know that. That can feel especially if you're if you're in a parish type of context that you can be sent places. Like you don't need your like, I can't say that I'm here forever, because I might be reassigned that gets a little bit dicey. Same thing sometimes with with missionaries, or people who are uncertain in places, but the the, the the longevity, and the consistency of the relationship is actually really important for the healing. Right.

Kyle: Now, I think that as ministry professionals, you know, looking at Ephesians four, right, that we equip the saints for ministry to the body of Christ may be built up. And so in coming in part of it, even in our approach with you know, being trauma informed, is a being honest, straight up front, like hey, I love you, I care for you. But the reality is, and we see in Scripture, God might call us to another place and time, first of all, and to is so I'm going to build you up. And I'm going to equip you because you are the ministry person in this community. So many times we make it about us where we find our identity and our work and churches. And that's some of our, I'm sorry, I don't want to project on everybody else. I've made it about me and found my identity and work in church and felt like I needed to be, quote unquote, Jesus to these people. that I was working with rather than the fact of realizing that God had put me in this position in this place, so that I can continue to pour into you to give tools to to be in relationship with local indigenous leaders. So that if he used to call me somewhere else, that ministry that I've called, I've been called to establish doesn't fail or fall in regardless, it's in God's hands. But but one that I've been seeking to equip, to build into to give tools to, but still being with, especially my leaders being very open and honest and apparent that, you know, I'm not looking to go anywhere, I'm here till God calls me somewhere else. But there is a reality. I mean, Paul planted churches and moved along, right, in the New Testament. And so, you know, that is a reality that that could happen, I might spend their entire life there. And that's great, because relationships are where healing takes place.

Renae: And well, I think that, that you touched on something that's really important. And that's the the, the wisdom of people groups, when we're when we're even talking about trauma informed approaches, that the, the necessity for humility, and openness, and the the leveling, because the truth is, we're not if we're going into a place, and that's not our own home base, we're not the experts of that area. And so it becomes the opposite of trauma informed if we're trying to do trauma informed anything, or we're trying to do ministry to a group of people versus we're in relationship, and it is the, how can we support what's already there, the wisdom of the people is already there. And how, how are we? You know, and I, your phrase of being Jesus I, I think of it is the I am Jesus, but in the way of that reflects the Jesus I see in other people, right, it's that we're, there's this like, mutual reflection of truth of God in both of us. And that's more of the Ministry of like, Hey, this is what I see in you, like you're hearing all these messages, you've had all these experiences that have told you a particular narrative. And that's not the actually the full truth of you.

Kyle: Well, I mean, you know, so working with living in and working with gang members, or living in the gang packing neighborhood, you know, I lived, so we live, I joke and say we live hood adjacent now. We're not necessarily in the hood, even though I don't believe the whole hood five anyway. But I mean, so my backyard neighbor would, you can't see if unless I was raising my computer are the oldest housing projects in Southern California.

Renae: Yeah, I was going to say that like, you live right next to the projects.

Kyle: That's why I joke. But now there's not people shooting in my front yard. Whereas before, there were people shooting my front yard, right. And, and so, you know, even living there and experiencing what we experienced and doing life with people. You know, I had a conversation one time with a kid and I said, you know, I understand how you get into a gang, I totally understand it. Like, you know, I wanted to be included, I wanted to be part of something bigger than myself, I just don't understand why you stay in it. And he looked at me, and he said, Unless you play the game, you'll never really understand it. You know, you could watch the game, but you never know what it is to play the game. And I was just kind of like, Huh, you know, but at the same time is walking and telling, you know, an individual, Hey, your identity is not in the neighborhood that you claim and the tattoos on your body and your criminal record, you know, your identity isn't who God has created you to be. And so let's figure out what that looks like, as we walk in it, knowing that, you know, as I'm walking alongside of that individual, that individual is walking alongside of his brothers and sisters in the fraternal community that they have joined. And so you know, and that he then can be that messenger, that Jesus to them much more effectively than I ever could. Because I am an outsider, you know, and are we my kids are outsiders, you know, we stay late. I mean, maybe my grandkids if they were born and raised in that community, then they would be part of the community. But But I mean, I, I know what it is to have someone outside my house shooting, but I don't know what it is to be a child in that.

Renae: Yeah. What and I think that that's the, the piece of I don't think we know as people who are doing Ministry, often how traumatizing it can be, for people to be there their realities to be dismissed for their identities to be dismissed by people who are trying to be very helpful, but are not willing to take a step back and say, I actually don't have the full picture. And all I can, all I can do is to reflect things that are true would, which are, hey, you're an amazing person, person. And your behavior is not you. And your choices are actually not you like there is this whole amazing person, regardless of any of these circumstances and behavior, and that's, I'm going to reflect that truth to you, even in the midst of these circumstances, I'll hold both at the same time.

Kyle: And that's hard to because it's for individuals, when, when that's been their entire reality, to realize that this I don't say, Well, let me healthy, this isn't a healthy reality. Right? I have lived in and cope with, and you're telling me that I'm broken? And it's like, no, not tell. I mean, and that's where I will say brokenness is brokenness. It just looks different from where you are. Right? We all struggle with brokenness, you know, and, and, or theological. We all struggle brokenness as a result of our sin. It looks different, right? I'm not saying I'm any more whole than you are. But what I'm saying is the reality that you've gotten used to, and living in might be a reality that you got to think through, and we can walk in, right and figure out how do we do this? Well, you know, case in point. So one of the kids that I worked with was was gunned down and killed, right? Sorry, that's traumatized. Anybody, you know, I'm gonna tell some real stories in this and try to make them PG, PG 13. But it's a reality of ministry in in a neighborhood that's getting impacted, right? So so one of the kids was killed, I get a phone call at 10 o'clock at night from another kid letting me know that this, this person was killed. I didn't answer the phones, it was 10 o'clock at night, and I'm going to bed, you know, I'm old. And so I let it do a voicemail, because I'm just thinking, whatever, you know, listen to voicemail. And I immediately call back and he doesn't answer and I'm calling I'm calling the next day, we're driving around and look for him calling. And not because not, because, well, because I knew the tools that he had in his toolbox, on how to deal with the traumatic situation. And we're not the same tools that I had to deal with in my toolbox. And, you know, my tool box, we would, you know, allow police to handle this, we would mourn, we would come together we would sit, you know, and this we would kind of talk tell stories process, you know, kind of grieve the immediate, you know, just reaction to this. His toolbox, we're gonna get retribution for this action. And he did what he knew to do, and got in a car with a couple guys. And they went out and they went hunting for retribution. And they, they, they luckily, they didn't take someone's life. But they were caught by the police. And they ended up all being arrested and sent to prison. Now, am I saying that the action that they did wasn't wrong? No, absolutely, you know, that was wrong. But what I'm also saying is, the action that they did was the only action they knew to do, right? Because of the surroundings because of the tools that they were given because of how things worked in their life. And so coming to that reality, you know, in realizing that and ministry kind of gives you a different kind of view of things of going like, Hey, you, you made a mistake you did, you might have done a terrible thing. But part of it is is because that's what you're hardwired to do. It's not an excuse, per se, but it is something we've got to work with and work through to heal from to realize that, that this is not you know, the best thing in the best scenario. And it affects me as well. Right parenting. I was yelled at and spanked as a parent. So when I'm stressed when when something traumatic happen, and my kids buggin guess what my go tos are, regardless of how much training I've had and how many discussions I've been to right.

Kyle: I start yelling, and you know, and I want to spank my children. Now I know if my oldest one is 15 That's not going to work. Right? It wasn't going to work when he was five. My youngest. I mean, he will yell back at me. Why are you yelling at me? I thought we were gonna work on this, you know? And so I think that that's the reality is that figuring out a way to slow down in ministry. As well, as you know, I know that we're doing a different gathering for parents, but you know, struggle is figuring out a way to slow down and ministry to realize, like, hey, this people that I'm walking with, and I'm working with, what in their environment is causing them to react in the way that they're reacting? What and, and how do we deal on that level, and making this a safe space for them, as well as for you know, for us, everybody else around us?

Renae: Yeah, and I really appreciate you leveling it. Because you're, you're talking about the the friend who went to seek retribution. And that's, that's all that he had. Because it was a, it was a limited toolbox, and then to tell the truth about your own experience of, in recognizing your own history, from childhood left you with a limited toolbox, as well. So as much as it was a protected space, it only gave this much perspective, and which is why it's so important for us to do this life together in relationship. But it's got to be safe, it's got to be safe. And that requires us to do a whole lot of things. So but what would you say if you were if you were going to go speak to people who were heading to into their first ministry placement? In a space, like uh, being impacted neighborhood? To say, hey, like, these are some really clear, important things for you to know, as you're walking into this, what would you say?

Kyle: I mean, ministry is going to, I mean, Satan works. Satan's. He's working in this world, right? And he's going to use your own brokenness against you. And so, you know, before you walk into a space and say, Hey, I'm going to save everybody in this space, right? To really kind of take some time to go, what is it in me, that I've struggled with? What are what are things that I, you know, what's my brokenness look like? And some of the things you won't discover until you're in the midst of the situation and go, you know, why did I react that way, you know, and reflect, and learn. And this takes time, it takes maturity, it takes for me, it's taken quite a bit of counseling, you know, but to learn and to grow, and my own the things that I've been traumatized with my own brokenness and realize, like, hey, that's gonna affect my, my ministry, my marriage, my parents, like everything. And so how do I work to heal myself, or allow the Lord to heal me, so that I can be a healing presence to others.

Kyle: A couple of weeks ago, I was I was, I do lunch duty at the there's a school associate with our church. And, this the first there's three launches, the first one, they're just wildin' out. And, and I was just like, you know, the old tools were coming back, I was wanting to yell, I wasn't gonna spank someone else's kid, right. But I was wanting to yell, right. And the second lunch comes in, and I said, I have an announcement to make. I want you to all know that I am dysregulated, right now, I am doing all that I can in my power to regulate myself. I know, that's not the best place to do and be. But I'm letting you know. And so please, for my sake, if you're able to kind of hold on to your your screaming, yelling, whatever, that would be helpful for me in this. But go crush your business. And please know that if I do snap at you, it's because where I'm at right now, and I'm trying not to do that, right. You should have seen the look of these kids faces, though, because they're just like, no adult has ever admitted that to you. I mean, think about that, to walk into a situation as a teacher, as a ministry leader, you know, working with kids, and just being honest with yourself knowing that inside yourself, hey, I'm dysregulated for some reason, and I know that I might dysregulate everybody in this room as a result. Maybe I need to take a step back from that. Maybe I need to do some work and figure out what what was it that was triggering for me. It will pay dividends in your own life and ministry. I can tell you that.

Renae: Yeah, I really, really appreciate that because it's no no person in the history of the world that has been dysregulated has regulated someone else. It's just doesn't it just doesn't happen. And I think that's the that's part of the struggle with the culture of 'power over' that is permeated the church education, law enforcement It's, like, all all these social spaces is this idea of if something's making me uncomfortable, I gotta shut that down. And it's really about our own trigger points.

Kyle: Well, it's I mean, you know, we talked about brain science, right? It's, I'm in my lower brain, so I have to make this feel safe for me. And I am going to do and say things to other people around me, that are going to feel safe for me. But unfortunately, especially and in situations where there's been a lot of trauma perpetuated, you know, that's not going to feel safe for them. I've actually had this in working with law enforcement, you know, had the situation and saying, like, Hey, guys, here's the deal. Your trauma, when you come into a situation, you you can't do what you do normally, and work with the people you work with normally, and not be traumatized. Right. And it's the same in ministry situations, especially if you work with people from hard places, right? You know, you're going to be traumatized by their experiences, well, here's the result, you have your trauma, and you come into a traumatic situation, right.

Kyle: And if I come in and traumatic situation, and I'm not acknowledging that I'm traumatized and dysregulated, and trying to like work on that, in the midst of that, and put myself in check, these two are going to combine, it's gonna explode. Now, my discussions with law enforcement is, hey, at the end of the day, you have weapons and training. So guess who's gonna win? Right? My my thing with ministry leaders is, hey, you have words and actions, and you might think you won. But then you never see that that kid that family come back, or are really far off on you. Because, you know, you are freaking out, realizing you're freaking out or not. They're freaking out just because of the situation they're they live in. And those two come together, and it's not a pretty thing.

Renae: Well, and I would even say that, that people in ministerial positions, who are who if your pastor or minister in that particular role, you have a weapon to and it's positional authority, that there's this idea of as a as a representative of God as a person. I mean, it gets a little dicey, because it's, it's soul matters, like,

Kyle: I'm the Passter Dang it, you better listen to me. You need to sit there and be still because I'm preaching a sermon right now. Word words, you know?

Renae: Yeah, absolutely.

Kyle: That's what happened. I know what that feels like. And it's like, I don't want to be around you anymore.

Renae: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the, that part of that safety is leaving space for people to say, says, who? Like the says who? Like, wait a minute, like, who are you? If that guy in the park, your friend who's like, Who are you anyway? And for that, I think that was going to be maybe this is what will title your talk is that Who are you anyway? Because that's, we need to know, like us being rooted in in the truth of who we are. And in that place where we're not fighting against something, we're not going to be reactive, we're going to be responsive.

Kyle: And I think that realizing that, you know, in any ministry scenario, I'm no better or worse than the person I'm talking with. Yep. You know, there, there needs to be that shared power. In this, right? Yes, I might be the one who's going to preach a sermon. Right. But maybe before our youth ministry meetings, if we're working with youth, or we kind of have, hey, we're going to have some agreed upon things that we come up with together. Not that I'm going to tell you, this is what the rules are, but we're going to come up together, right? So that way, you know, if something's if a covenant is being broken, you can say, hey, we agreed on this, correct? Yeah. Are you following that? No. Now, I'm not shaming you. I'm just kind of pulling you back. I mean, it might seem like shaming, but I'm also kind of pulling you back into, but you were a part of this, like we all agreed upon it. Right. Right. You know, and having those kind of how in this situation, can I share power with those who are here?

Renae: You know, well, and even your youngest doing that with you by saying, I thought we said we weren't going to do this. Right. They're like they're to make it okay, to push back and say, Wait a minute, like, if we're in relationship, but this is mutual, then I can hold you accountable too and I think that gets that feels for a lot of people might, you know, all of us in all of our history is at some point has not enjoyed someone holding us accountable.

Kyle: Well, and I mean, you know, as you're, as you're giving me, my experience back to me, I'm picking myself like a lot of people would be like, Oh, he's back talking to you. I'm like If he's not back talking to me, because we've had this discussion in the car where he said, Dad, I don't like when you yell at me and I said, Son, I don't like when this happens. Right? And, you know, so how are we going to work on that? He Oh, well, yeah. Well, you work on this. Yes. Will you work on not yelling at me? Yes. You know, so when I yell at him, I have to like, there's a part of me too, that goes, okay. Is he breaking the cabinet as well, that I mean, yeah, he's eight, nine years old. So cognitively, I gotta realize that he doesn't have all the wires that are connected. And even in a couple of years, those wires that are connected, we're going to shed, and we're going to lose our mind again, right? So we have to constantly kind of like come up with this. Not power over because I'm your parents. But hey, I got more tools in my toolbox.

Kyle: My job is to give you those tools to help you with that. But there needs to be some some relationship in that and that relationship, yes, there's going to have boundaries. Absolutely. You know, here, here's where the fences are. And with my oldest, you have to tell them, here's where the fences are, and he will do all he can to make sure that fence is not going to fall down. You know, and at the same time, is, I also have to give him some grace, because I'm going to need some grace. And so there's this balance in, in ministry, whether you're, you know, coming up with a group covenant and how things are going to happen and parenting, whatever, of what does it look like to be in a healthy relationship with the individuals I'm working with? Even you know, in marriage and everything in a loving way, knowing acknowledging my own brokenness in the midst of that, right?

Renae: llke your relationship with yourself is going to dictate your relationship with other people. Absolutely. I just really appreciate your your honesty and your openness and you know, being able to travel with you throughout the these last number of years, and both of us being on healing journeys and learning more and having to feel like it's that that onion, like there's layers and layers and layers. When we get to this next point. We're like, oh, shoot, okay, now I knew more. And so I just appreciate that we're that we're able to share this with each other now that I've been able to share you with all the people at the summit and in the community. So thank you so much for your time, and you're just your investment in this space and, and being a good partner in all of it.

Kyle: Well, thank you for you know, flying the flag, the trauma flag, right and helping people realize and learn and grow in their ministry ability in their parenting ability and their, you know, relational ability, realizing that, you know, that we all have struggled and, and so, you know, how do I come alongside of somebody and understand and realize their struggle, while realizing and understanding my own, you know? Yeah.

Renae: Well, thanks so much, Kyle, we're cheering you on and I look forward to hearing more of your awesome stories. I like your stories.