Belonging Without Harm: A TraumaWise Ministry Summit Panel on Safety, Power, and Presence

Renae: So hello everybody.

Bill: Hello good afternoon.

Renae: Glad to have you here. I've got some of our wonderful speakers are joining us for this Q&A and this is one of my favorite topics. So I'm really, maybe that's why I picked it because I really enjoy it. So as we're getting started on this Q&A for our day two of trauma-wise ministry summit, I would love to invite our speakers to introduce themselves. Aaron, I know I put you in as a speaker, but you're not. I just put you up there automatically. So I'm going to unpin you because I just realize I did that. So, and then everyone who's attending, I just want to let you know that there is going to be a transcript and a summary and I'm sharing it freely because sometimes we say really cool things and we want to be able to share that with each other. So I am going to go ahead and ask Elizabeth to introduce herself and she can popcorn over to the next person. So Elizabeth a little bit your name where you're calling from and let's see let's say that's a good icebreaker for today. When does summer start for you and why?

Elizabeth: Oh mercy. I'm Elizabeth Power. I'm calling in from Nashville Tennessee. I know you can't tell that by the accent and a little bit about what I do. I'm the founder of the Trauma Informed Academy and we work helping organizations and individuals. First of all, reduce the othering that goes on for people who have histories of trauma. Second, adopt perspective of your universal exposure with unique reaction. And third, develop the skill sets and the knowledge basis so that they can change their culture, whether it's personal or as a group, to become more responsive to things that overwhelm people. The icebreaker was, help me out here.

Renae: When does summer start and why?

Elizabeth: starts the first thing I'm sweating when I'm outside. And, you know, in the south, in Nashville, could say, well, it starts during the 24th. No, are you kidding me? It's already 83 degrees and 80 percent here. This is not summer.

Bill: This is the chimney of Hill.

Renae: And everyone, if you have not listened to Elizabeth's or watched her presentation, you don't, you do not want to miss it. We are, we are such kindred spirits. Thank you, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: I'll try and keep it in line.

Renae: Actually, no need. No need.

Elizabeth: Oh, good.

Renae: Please God, Elizabeth, please. No need.

Elizabeth: That's so good.

Renae: Good. Um, I think, um, Daniel, I think you might have been the next. So why don't you introduce yourself? so hey, Chris, we're saying for our speakers, we're on the panel and where, who we are, we're calling from and, um, what, uh, what, uh, our spicebreaker, icebreaker question is, um, when did summer start and why was it start on that day?

Daniel: Hey, everyone. I am Daniel Ramos. Um, I am calling in from Orange County. I work at the community action partnership of Orange County, better known for the OC food bank. Um, but wherever you're at, there should be community action partnership agency. It's over the Orange County branch. I think school and summer kids and teen program. Um, that just goes over. a whole lot of stuff. I'm developing curriculum. It's kind of been my main job there. But I'm also a therapist in training in at least at least in a few weeks. And I'm also the host podcast finding out again. And summer for me, it depends on who's asking. I don't know when my summer semester starts for school. But whenever I start my internship, that's going to kind of be, I guess the start of summer in one brain for our youth programming. That's like June 15th. But I also really like what Elizabeth said when I start sweating, which was this last weekend, when I would say, once there's one week in which I have to consistently wear shorts and I can't wear pants or else I'm going to be sweating, I'd say that's more confidently when summer begins.

Renae: Awesome. Well, thank you, Daniel. We're so glad that you're here. Bill, I think you were next.

Bill: All right. So I'm Bill Barber, President. insight formation. We are consulting and technology company that helps communities or larger regions tackle big complex problems that are way bigger than what any organization can do on their own. And where it's about co-creating strategies that many different organizations can work together on different parts over an extended period of time. And we also have a software platform for managing that. And we've been developing wiki-based kind of knowledge bases to have the information to support that type of large-scale strategy management, since it's new for most people and everyone doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. I'm in, based out of Minneapolis, and it used to be the summer started when the kids were done with school, but our kids have graduated now and are off as adults. But it still is, I talked with a lot of college students. It's sort of like when the college students are done with finals at summer.

Renae: Awesome. Thank you. you're here, Bill. Marjorie, it's you.

Margery: Okay. Hi, my name is Marjorie Arnold and I will just say, I'm just a, I like to, Daniel's interview the other day, we said, I'm just a guy. just a lady. I'm just a person who's just here trying to, to help us all be, be, work together and be, be good people and be there for each other, I guess. That's what I'm trying to do. Anyway, I, I really resonate with what Elizabeth said about summer, growing up in Texas and living there until I was 24. It was like, as soon as winter stopped, that's when summer started because spring was about a week and if you missed it, you missed it. And it was just going to be hot. But now that I live in Southern California, I say it starts on the 4th of July. I swear, it's just we have this little phenomenon here called May, Grey and June gloom. And it's just because it's the only time it's ever overcast here. And it's actually kind of unseasonably cool. So don't go to the beach in June in Southern California. You'll just be cold. But 4th of July on, it's summer, all the way through September was my favorite part.

Daniel: Or October.

Renae: Or to Christmas, you never know.

Elizabeth: Let's go to Hawaii.

Daniel: I agree.

Renae: That's our next conference will be, right? Marjorie is telling herself short, everybody in some respects. Marjorie is a psychologist who has a phenomenal brain and a big heart and works in the mental health ministry side of things for our Roman Catholic friends and has done a a lot of innovation and advocacy and ground work in building from the bottom up and also from the top down in that space. She does great work and she's one of my favorite co-facilitators ever. Thank you, Marcia. All right, Chris, you're up. All right.

Chris: My name is Chris Hoy. It doesn't look like that, but it's pronounced H-O-Y. So, if you've seen it on any of the materials, it's the one that looks like how geek. I've been kind of in the trauma-informed ministry space since taking a position little over a decade ago as a chaplain to severely emotionally kids in a residential setting at a facility called Inner Mountain in Helena, Montana. Since that time, I've kind of worked my way around and have landed at mirror ministries in the Tri-Cities Washington, so that's kind of South Central Washington, West of Walla Walla, and still in the middle of wine country, if you're familiar with the geography of Washington state. So I'm in friend and fundraising now, so advocacy and telling the stories in a compelling way that that draws people in to want to support the work that we do. Obviously, oh, I haven't told you mirror ministries is anti trafficking ministry with a focus in working with those that were trafficked as minors. So we do have adult clients of our 72 active clients, a quarter of them are still under the age of however. So we come alongside them and do everything from kind of the the dramatic sort of rescues where we send an advocate to kind of come in to do a bad situation and help them find a safe place to land to those that are kind of working through their trauma and providing classes and mentoring, case management, connecting with other agencies, all sorts of work. So we have our 10th coming up later this year, so we're a fairly new organization as compared to Intermountain, where I came from. That's over 120 years old now, so well known in the state of Let's see, summer starts. I will say that my definition of summer starting has changed quite a bit, moving from Montana to eastern Washington. We kind of have Mother's Day as a marker for which you were foolish if you tried to plant anything in your yard, priority Mother's Day, because it might freeze and snow and kill whatever you planted in Montana. Here in eastern Washington, that's about Mother's Day is about the time where we might start hitting the 80s or the 90s on occasion. So I'd say Mother's Day is a pretty safe day to mark as the start of summer around here.

Renae: Awesome. Well, thank you, Chris. Are you near where all the tulip fields are?

Chris: No, no tulip field. It's little too hot for tulip fields around here. Lots of, in the Tri-Cities area, lots of potatoes, interestingly enough.

Renae: We had that in April when we were up there, but maybe, you know, it wasn't a while ago, maybe 20 years ago, it wasn't as hot. that the climate has changed or anything. But so, Wendy, I don't, I think I might have caught on that you might be eating your lunch right now but um we're

Wendy: um oh hello hello we're introducing ourselves so our name where we're calling from and our uh check in question for today is uh wind is summit summer start and uh why great excuse me i'm not being as healthy as margery with the salad i have sausage mashed potatoes on my plate full disclosure and it's delicious so if you see any of my teeth i apologize um well i've just been enjoying the summit so much so far i'm Wendy McMahon calling in from southern california uh i lead for the children which runs royal family kids camp and mentoring in 43 us dates and nine countries um summer for me starts on monday because that is our first camp louisiana north east Louisiana kicks off our first camp of the summer and then we go all the way through the end of August. So the first one I will visit will be on June 4th but I consider the summer is coming up next week.

Renae: Awesome. Glad you're here. For those who haven't met me, my name is Renae. I'm calling from sunny southern California where it is a balmy 72 degrees at the moment in my backyard and it's a it's a very beautiful day because I don't have to run my my air conditioner and my little she shed out here so we're all really grateful for that and for me summer it's it's Memorial Day for me. It's like the Memorial Day and the next day after that is when summer starts and so it's coming it's coming up. Well thank you everybody for introducing yourselves and for those who are watching live with us here that have any questions you can feel free to put those into the chat. If you're watching the replay on on Facebook, in the Facebook group, please put hashtag replay with your questions, and we are going to invite our speakers to respond in there. if there are any direct questions that we could connect you with somebody, we'll also use that space to be able to address any of those queries. So I'm going to briefly set the stage for this first question. And it comes from my seminary training in at Full Earth Theological Seminary. And I believe I was taking this class probably back in 2000. was before my children moved in, so like 2009, 2010 or so. And it was communications class. it was really to prepare pastures for being able to communicate well, but it was not a preaching class. It was very much about all the different ways that must saging is shared with people. And the was really, really good at helping us to understand that nonverbal communication is not just our facial expressions, but everything around us that's in an environment is communicating a message and even the mediums that we use. And so it was a Marshall McLuhan's quote of the medium is the message that the way that we communicate something sends just as much of a message as the words, which is why things like even we know like facial expressions or tone of voice or lighting. If you talk to anybody who's worked on any work in the theater world or into in performance, you know that how you set the stage tells people what's about to happen. Same thing with film, same thing with books. Every time we're telling a story, we're setting a stage and people are anticipating based on that. And so in the concept of felt safety and connection. and in co-regulation for people, in ministry spaces, how we set up our spaces and how we communicate before we ever open our mouths, tells people a story and tells them whether they can belong or not or it gives them a biological response. And so I would love to hear from everyone what has been a turnaround moment for you or a moment that you had experienced or realized this, that how we set up our spaces and places, it requires a prominent informed lens in order for them to be a healthy place in order for our ministries and our faith gatherings and everything that we're to provide that felt safety before we utter a single word. So I'm just going to invite our speakers, you can either raise a physical hand or you can raise the little hand feature in Zoom, but go ahead and what was that moment for you that flashpoint or that moment where you recognize it and it can be that you recognize something that was not done well or something that was done well?

Elizabeth: Well, hand raised. There have been a couple of pivotal points for me. My faith history is long and storied. I'm a Cravapiscopalian. spent four years in EFM at the University South, two years at Erlem, a couple of years hanging out at a convent and across all of these, as I became more and more keenly attuned to those things that so overwhelm people that they can't, that they think I might die or lose their mind or be badly injured. I began to look at everything from approaching the church to the interactions with the people, to how the church was set up and the movement among the people. But two things stand out. One in a church that did not do a very good job. at all of identifying. They never wrestled with the question, for example, of, are we ever really safe? Well, if you ever went to Alabama, you might have noticed a license tag that said when the stars fell in Alabama, which is because a meteorite crashed through a woman's house and whacked her in the leg in the 50s. We are very fond of talking about the fact that there might of implying that there is absolute safety and there's no such thing. And so when I began to realize that we can only reduce the risks of things that are unexpected or unpleasant happening, I began to work with that congregation to move towards how can we increase the perceptions around what we will do if something difficult happens? How can we talk about building sturdy relationship where the love of God will sustain us through this rather than causing us to turn our backs in different ways, especially when something bad happens in the congregation? And the second time that I became keenly aware of this, as a congregational problem involves space, place, body language, environment, communications tools within the church was at a women's retreat where a woman came up to me and said, oh, my name is so-and-so, what's your name? Oh, my name's Elizabeth. Well, what do you want? I hope people become trauma informed. Y'all, that woman was off and running about all the horrible things that had ever happened to her. She didn't know me from Adam's house cat. And she just went right into all the horrible things that really are reserved for telling clinicians. One of the things that we began to do in that church was to educate the laity in two different ways. One is to help them understand the levels of intimacy. Matthew Kelly does a great job explaining those, especially for intimate relationships. But when you're taught clinically and as a client and as a person with media, tell your story. Tell your story all the time. Speak your truth. You should always tell your story. You never develop any of the guardrails that set you up for being able to tell your story to people who might be able to hear it and who might be able to continue. paying it. And so what I look at is, I look number one, what does the congregation say about its self-hince media, its website? Is there any evidence of those things that might be unconscious cognitive errors that set people up accidentally? When you go to a physical building, how are you greeted? Are you greeted warmly? Can you stand and watch and see who's liked and who's not liked by how many people turn hard left as soon as somebody approaches? What are the unspoken rules? One church has a rule that we feed everybody, our doors are always open but the doors are locked and if you live out of county you can't get food there. So what's the alignment between commandment number two and the people who are acting it out? I'm done now.

Renae: And this is why Elizabeth is here everybody. Alright, I love it. I love it. And absolutely, absolutely. that was, and I didn't mention the that that class, one of the assignments of the class is that we had to attend four different faith gathering services outside of our tradition and really look at how, what was it like, how was it set up, what was our experience, how were things communicated, and where were the barriers, where were the entry points, what were each of the things that were happening telling us about ourselves going in and everything is a message, everything is creating a message and we don't we don't necessarily know what people are walking in with but there are some that thing of can you watch people and who's taking a hard left, right? can tell the people that people just are like and when you see that you're like wow this is not a safe place.

Elizabeth: What surprises me is the ease with which we do it. You know, and I want you all know I'm guilty. I mean, I'm so guilty of this myself. I'm not this, you know, this is beach call on the sand white in terms of I own it. We are so good at separating and disconnecting. What we fail to realize, I think, and I believe, I believe I believe this, is that every single one of us has been exposed to something traumatic, something that makes us think we can't make it through it. But we sit in church and in leadership in elders and deacons and vestry meetings, and it's always those people, those girls. And then, you know, when you look at this, and I think about the work you do, Chris, in terms of working with people who've emerged from trafficking, child , or other forms of commercial misconduct is the easiest way to say it. And when you work with folks like the people at Disle Farms and other places, where people come out of that kind of environment. You almost engage in what I call trauma , which is so accidental, because everybody wants you to make them the hero of a story, to brag on them when they ride on the back of a car, graduation from their program, and it's oh what they've overcome, what how well they are doing, oh what they have overcome, and frankly that only purports and supports the room for us to keep separating, and I think falling further and further into really destructive patterns that only give the enemy of all that is good and holy, right footholds in our congregations. I guess I wasn't done, sorry.

Renae: Yeah, Daniel, go ahead.

Daniel: I'll go next to jump off of what Elizabeth just said. but so there wasn't aha moment pretty late in my life or late in comparison to how long I've been alive. But it's also been a live experience for myself. So if CPTSD was part of the DSM-5-TR, I would be diagnosed with that 100%. I have, I think, seven aces. Renae, this is the last time that even the aces I added a nace. So thanks for my mom recently, was really funny. But I have, I think, pearls, total or something like that and last time I went over it. And for those of you who are unfamiliar with aces and pearls, aces is a great tool and was researched with a very specific population in San Diego that could afford Kaiser. Pearls is an extensive and they added on a bunch of others that include more social issues as well, all racism and whatnot. But with that being said, said, like, you know, we say with trauma and form care that all behaviors communication. And yes, cases adverse childhood spirits, sorry, and then pearls is, I forgot what it stands for. But it's some something, some long thing. But, you know, all behaviors communication and early on in my life, I had a lot of behaviors, right? Where I didn't even know that I was responding from a place of trauma, that, you know, since an early age, I experienced a lot of anxiety, experience a lot of anger, experience a lot of dysregulation, difficulty paying attention, difficulty understanding social cues, which we would all classify those as ADHD or some other disability or what have you, right? really, it can be and is carcinism trauma. And it wasn't until I ended up after college moving in as an incitement or for guys who to page out the foster care system. Sitting in one of Renae's classes and going over what trauma is, and I was like, oh, crap. I was like, this is me, and realizing how much of that, how much I was able to actually connect with the guys that I was leading. In some ways, we've experienced different things. They've experienced the separation of their families. experienced it in a different way. They went to the foster system. I'm thankful that I never did, but my sisters were in a kinship family. So they have their own trauma for that, right? And at this house, I think there was a lot of things that we could have done to improve, for sure, to be able to create an environment of safety. But for me, what I really learned was, it really takes my own posture. It takes myself understanding what questions am I asking? So Elizabeth, I was… just remembering when you were talking at APU, I went to a specific university. In your first year, you're put into group called Alpha Group. These are your forced friends is what we would all the students would call it. And you're with them for the entire year. And what's very common is you go around slowly throughout the first semester and you tell your life story or your testimony. And I think I went last in my group. But everyone, it was like you said, trauma poor. Oh, this is what I've been through and this is what God made me overcome. And it put a pressure on me that I had to exaggerate things. When in reality, I'm like sitting there, I'm like, you experienced that? But that's not, okay, I don't like for you. I mean, and now I'm like, okay, you experienced something that was difficult. And so for you, you consider that to be trauma and that's valid for me, I may not. And for myself, and that's fine. Obviously we all live in a multiverse of brain. and universes in that sense, but like everyone has experienced a level of trauma, but we do create at least in faith-based spaces. We have often created spaces in which we have to over-exaggerate things instead of realizing how God can actually move in very subtle or very mundane, mundane thing. what upism is a real thing as Chris just said. It really is. Um, and so like, you know, when we're, we need to create spaces where people naturally are empowered to share their stories instead of forcing people to share their stories, right? So now one thing that I'm involved with, with my youth that I do, we empower them to tell their stories through art. empower them to tell their stories through mindfulness and through journaling. And I tell them, you don't have to share this with me. You don't have show this with anyone else in the room. If you ever want to share something that you've been through, you can. I will share my story. I will share what I have been through in order to help you see where I'm coming from. But I am not, and to give you an example of what that looks like, but I'm not going to go around and say, all right everyone let's tell our life stories and tell me everything you've been through because the kids that I work with, they all come from the socioeconomic status and gang affiliated neighborhoods. And so one person will say something and it's going to severely trigger someone else, right? And so I think when we look at that question, how are we facilitating these groups? What examples are we putting? Have we done the work for ourselves? Are we self-regulating on our own? Are we going to therapy, mentorship, but then also are we providing a space for people to be brave and to share something because when we share that is healing.

Renae: Thank you And I want, of Chris and Wendy and Marjorie and Bell. When you're when you're ready, let me let me know. I'm looking, I'm waiting for you. you, is that you Bill, be raising your hand?

Bill: All right, there we go. Yeah, the first thing that came to mind when you were saying, you know, time when perhaps I can't how you worded the question, but just thinking about how oftentimes we can be, if for me, realizing that you're looking through lenses that you didn't realize you were looking through. And I think, you know, in the last four years or so, around some of the things with regard to race, having been in a dominant culture where the kind of the world was viewed through what normal was and everything that there were a lot of learning. It's like, wow, other people's experiences aren't the same. And how, how do you make the place safe? Not that it's hostility, but it's just like there's this, um, It's kind of, I don't know, the water that we're swimming in is, is we don't even notice it and it has certain assumptions and being able to realize that different people experience things very differently because of it may be their race, it may be other things and how, how do we make that safe or at least be more self awareness of those things. It's a journey, but that's been an area where I think I've learned some valuable things.

Renae: Thank you. And I appreciate that in the humility of that is saying I have approached things with a viewpoint that is not everyone else's perspective or experience. And I think that's been part of the, I think I'm not speaking for all of God's people or the church. But I will say that broad stroke that has been a part of the issue, especially with the American church. But even in the colonization that is tied to the church is that we're this idea that there's a group of people who have the expertise to tell other people what they need to do. Without having any well, first of all, there's that issue, but then also like going into spaces that you that are not your spaces and and saying, Oh, this is how you need to see things. The the arrogance of that is is not just I think that there's an affront to what's holy when we when we're doing that because there were it's at the cost of someone else's identity experience expression that God spark in them. Like we missed that when we're when we're creating this other and then there's an an an expertise that was on top of that. Yes, Chris, go ahead.

Chris: You Sorry. Lowering my hand and unmuting at the same time. I'm having a multitask. I think the point that you make brings up for me a key aspect of how I've seen trauma informed ministry in terms of, you know, it gets sort of caricatured at times in terms of making spaces and honestly we're gonna, if we're people of conviction and we believe we have some truth to tell that is, you know, a meta narrative of God's plan of salvation or however you want to put it, right? exist because they believe they have a story to tell and they want to help people and they want to live that out. So how do we balance the curiosity that comes with being truly trauma informed that we don't assume we know about people. people just because we have some aspect of their story as a traumatized individual, right? How do we balance that curiosity with our convictions and the confidence that we might have something to say that would help them? And so if you keep those things in balance, I think you approach things with inappropriate humility. If you don't keep those things in balance, then you do come across as as salvific. Here I am writing in on the white horse and I'm going to save you for traumatized individual or as a white person to somebody who's a racial minority, the white savior sort of mentality. A lot of those things can be avoided by practicing that curiosity that provides. I think when somebody asks me about me and then truly listens, then I feel safe, right? To bring it back to you, I think what the original question was about safe spaces and those aha moments. And, and I think just over archingly realizing that a lot of what makes our faith communities unique is that, is that they are a tribe, right? And there, there will be both written and unwritten rules about how that tribe has come together, the things they say, the things they do, the times they stand when they kneel. And, and so I, I purposefully try to put myself in situations where I don't know what to expect, worshiping with other communities, even as a, as a part-time pastor myself, so that I am reminded constantly that it's better to kind of narrate what I'm doing as I'm doing it, even for those that, that may have been coming for quite a while to, to kind of explain. and it's fascinating to me on a regular basis, people that have been worshiping with me for years or might have been worshiping in that setting for decades. We had one of these the other day, we were explaining the difference between the small sea church, of the local dynamic, you know, local church, the local expression of community and the big sea church, the church, church, the church, Catholic, that of all believers everywhere at all times. And somebody was like, I never knew that. You know, they've been going to church since, know, for 60 years and hadn't heard that. And that one of the reasons that we honor other traditions is because we're not just part of the small sea church, we're part of the big sea church. And there are other ways of doing what it is. We do when we come together to worship and to seek fellowship. So, I think that sort of curiosity and humility in entering those spaces is a big key in providing safe spaces. But I don't want to lose back that we have convictions. We have things that we believe and we do hope that we do hope that by sharing those things that we hold here, we can really help people. We do have something to say into that space.

Renae: Thank you, Chris.

Margery: I was just thinking about the first thing that came into my mind, Renae, you were asking about an aha moment, such as a small thing, but it triggered a bunch of not triggered that's not the right word, it connected me to a lot of other things. So I remember, you know, because since I tried as a therapist, you know, thinking about the way the room is set up, et cetera, but it never occurred to me until I heard it in a training one time. to ask the client, do they like the way the room set up? Would they like their chair to be this way or that way? Or how would they, where would they like you to sit? And once I started doing that, that was like a real like, oh, how would I know if I, it's just that humility, I guess that you guys are talking about. And which reminded me that I go to Catholic churches that are, my church seems to be very, I just started thinking about this space. And, you know, it's kind of nice because everybody's facing the same direction and there's space, lots of space on the sides and in the back and even in the back, there's even this like little place where you can just go and there's really, you can be inside and can be listening, but you can also be on your feet and you can kind of move around or do whatever. And so I was just thinking about how, before we had the language to make these places, that that in and of itself to me is comforting as a person. those two kind of some of the more modern churches that I sometimes go to where you're all looking at each other and I have just realized like I just I don't feel as comfortable in there I don't feel as connected to God in there so funny um but the other thing that came to my mind okay so what I'm just just like saying is I don't feel like my church we don't have the language yet um we're learning the language um and you guys are talking about unwritten rules and lenses and I feel like all of us are trying to get this language and some churches have it and they're getting it and others of us have never heard it and then some people have heard of it and they make fun of it like with the bubble wrap but I had an experience um getting to what Elizabeth was talking about where somebody was they were trying to make our workplace at a in a church at a diocesan center more safe because they became aware that there were people who who wanted to harm the bishop, and we all work there. So they were trying to make it safer, but they were police officers, but they hadn't been trained in trauma-informed anything. And one of the police officers just started telling the story that was very detailed to the point that I was outside of myself. I had to leave the room because he didn't realize that I, you know, he was telling the story, which I'm not going to tell you what happened because I know better than to do that. But it triggered me in a very specific way, and it triggered me in a very specific way. And I had to leave and I was upset. I said, I'm supposed to be in this training, but why I'm, and he had, and so I just had to go to the bathroom and splash water in my face and somebody came in, they said, you okay? I said, no. and I just said very unchristian things and very with very colorful language. was very upset and I think it's important that we figure out what the language is and I think what you guys are trying to do in each of your roles is so important and I feel like yeah just got a long way to go but I'm really glad that we're all here because I did not feel I definitely did not feel safer after that meeting and there was no there was no plan for what happens if something bad happens it was just can't tell you how untrauma informed it was and I was I went and told my supervisor immediately I did do that but I did feel also very powerless in that situation because I'm not a I'm from very hierarchical church and I don't have that kind of power and I wasn't sure the people would listen to me. And anyway, I don't know. I'm just rambling, but I'm just saying this is needed and I'm glad of you.

Elizabeth: I think we could see it on your face. Your face showed what you were experiencing even when you were telling this little bit of a story. And I would like to recommend that all of you consider it because I do and because it's so important to me. There's my humility. No, it's not. It's about look, if you assume that everybody's been through something so horrible that they thought they might die or lose their mind or be badly injured from the pastor or the priest to the custodian or the person who parks the cars. It doesn't matter. Then suddenly the position all the perspectives change and it becomes a lot easier to say to folks when you're in a gathering. Look, it would be really easy for any of us to talk about the difficult things that have happened to us. We may not know each other well enough to do that yet. This is not necessarily the place to do it. This is an information gathering meeting. Better meetings make it easier. because those of us with dire histories, we learn boundaries that preserve us and protect us. We get told we have bad boundaries, but we don't, we have boundaries that work in context. And until we begin to have the experience of people saying, look, we just don't, we tell those stories in other settings. We love your stories and our stories are important, but this is not a place for those stories at this time. And that takes real calmness. And there are maybe a few general ways, but not meaning because the bottom line is the message you're giving is, please don't tell that story here and now, not because I don't want to hear your story, but because you're telling your story, it may injure other people at the time you're trying to help yourself heal. Let's figure out a way to do that together. And that's a really critical thing that I think is something we can work on. mean, to be able to, we, and in the trainings that we do, we ask people to refrain from telling their stories. And we set aside special time for people who need to tell their stories, so that people who don't have the self capacities. that strength of self to listen to them and take them in don't have to be exposed, but you know that's one of the things I learned coming out of the people with disabilities movement that may or may not be useful to you. And deciding I think on the language that we want to use collectively as well as individually we may have slightly different variations on how we say things at the bottom line though is that we all wish for everyone to be comfortable enough to find their presence in the intimacy in their intimacy with the creator. everybody is important as everybody else at that point. Yep. I'll quit now.

Renae: And yes, I get excited.

Elizabeth: I'm sorry.

Renae: Don't apologize. Don't apologize. Like if this is what this is literally we're here for. Let's but like we're here to every single one of the people that are here are passionate about this. Like our lives work is about this. so yes, please show up yourself as otherwise it's not going to. point, but the, but the, the, there's something you put in the top that I think is, is really essential here, and it's the attunement piece, right? So the attunement piece, in order for me to have the attunement to be able to pick up on your cues and to, to say, I can tell that something, I can tell what's going on in your face, I can feel that the temperature of the room changed, I can tell that something just shifted, that requires us to have done a lot of work to, to know when we can tune and when we can't tune. And so I, I don't want to show up in places as a person in a role that the people expect me to be able to attune to them and not be able to do it. And so if I'm, if that's my role, if I'm a shepherd, if I'm in that, in that therapeutic role, that helping role, whatever it happens to be, and I know that I can't tune in, I need to be able to communicate that well and tap out and find my person, someone else who's going to be able to be in that role. because I'm going to hurt people in my lack of attunement because they're going to feel the reject and eject just by the fact that I can't connect with them and be present with them in the way that they need. Even if it is to say, I'm going to contain this for the moment to let you know that we need to say do this another time when you can get all the attention that you need, right? I can't give you every all the attention that you need for this right now and it's so valid so I need to be, but I can't do that unless I'm attuned. And so that preparatory, that work, that discipline, that practice for us, not just individually but communally so that we know that we know as we move in and out of capacity because it's so fluid. You never know where you're going to be out on a particular day to be able to have the language that says it's okay to say I actually don't have capacity for that today, right?

Elizabeth: And setting up meetings, opening meetings and events.

Renae: With that awareness and that's the part I find missing is we wait and say that until after somebody's gotten your feelings hurt Instead of setting it up beforehand Yeah, and I think to the um, you know the The humility of asking people what they want versus Telling people what they want right the the I was I was at two years ago it was two years ago, and I'm in a room full of It's over 75% age up foster youth in a working setting and I'm going through my regular trauma-informed environments training And we're talking about helping people and helping the awareness of what my story is what happened to me What happened to you that type of thing and someone says But what about when I'm trying to help somebody and they won't let me? help them. And I said, did you ask them if they want your help? And they're like, no. And I'm like, yeah. So they don't want your help until they've asked you for their help. Right? And so it, you can approach and say, can I help you? Or is there something I could do? And it's different when you're in caregiving, I'm a caregiving side, caregiving is a different, that's a whole different ballgame. But I'm talking about with, with the humans that we engage with, that, that the power to say yes or no, that I want help or not, is part of what is the healing journey of trauma is that I have the power, I have a choice, and it's not imposed, right?

Elizabeth: I didn't good. I think the thing is, is that traumatic experiences, I'm aware that they are natural disasters or medical crises or terrorism or abuse or neglect or pick anything, anything that overwhelming. They impair receptive and expressive communication. They make it hard for people to say, I need help or to say I need this kind of help. And one of the things I found, I found this actually working in Minneapolis with Bill with the Stairship Foundation and a group of churches in North Minneapolis prior to George Floyd's murder was that if I just said, I may not know how to help you in the way you want help, but let me know what you think we might do together. Always bring it back to joining. Always bring it back to what can we do? Always bring it back to how might be God moving, be moving with us. And one of the things that Alfred Babington Johnson said to me, if you don't know him Bill, you should get to know him. Was, wait a minute, what model of ministry do you think we have here? I said, I don't know, that's up for you to figure out. Are you the shepherds helping the sheep? So you always have have to have somebody who is less than to in your congregation, is that still form of power over that's not necessary and not particularly helpful? Or are you a congregation where we are all walking each other home? that slips it to more collaborative because most congregational process where we get stuck is based on those people who have something wrong with them because of what's happened to them. And the rest of us, thank you very much, are fine. And no, we are not fine.

Daniel: I'm going to follow up after her. was amazing, Elizabeth. And there's so much in all of that and my brain is going to be in one way. But I wanted to address Bill, you were talking about attunement in the chat about what attunement is. so, I know Renae and I are both TBRI practitioners. I think Wendy is as well, I think. And so within Trust-Based Relational Intervention, you can check that out – Karyn Purvis has a bunch of videos on YouTube, they can look at that. Attunement is a difficult skill. I prefer to use Dr. Dan Siegel's method of mine sites. It's a great book, I just finished it on Saturday. And he talks about Attunement is he uses the word mine site for to kind of being able to. It's my simplified way that I tell my youth is radical empathy. It's the ability to sit across from the table of someone, put yourself in their body. And by utilizing mindfulness of your of your mind or thoughts of your emotions, your behaviors, how your body is feeling, what's going on in your external surroundings, etc. less continues to go on. You can effectively see what they're going through. So Dan Seagull talks about this time where he's sitting across from a 90-year-old patient, and he was listening to this man talking about what he does on the blind side, and he's like, I don't feel any emotions. There's something missing here, and so he discovered that this gentleman was raised in a very important household, a very emotionally cold home, where emotions went out dying. So as a 90-year-old man, it's now affecting his marriage and affecting all that other stuff. So attunement is really like a monkey scene, a monkey do. It's utilizing those mirror neurons, or the neurons that are in your brain of I'm looking at someone, and I can kind of guess what they might be experiencing. I do that with my youth, and they always say that I'm wrong with stuff, and I'm like, I know for a fact that I'm not wrong, but it's okay. know that you're so awesome. Yeah, or you're feeling scared, or you're really calm. I'm giving them a chance. you know, but you can still kind of guess that they're feeling some sort of way with something, right? That's really what attuning is and so it's doing that because, like I said earlier, all behaviors communication and we often look at the kid at our church who is constantly getting a fight or maybe the person who walks in and they're a bit drunk or high or maybe it's the young adult who's continuing to go out to clubs and have casual and churches have often told these people that they're not welcome until they're fixed, right? And as cliche as it is, the church is a place for the sick to be healed. And so instead attunement would be saying, what might this person be missing? What might they, what might be going on in their life that's causing them to need to do these things, right? Because we don't, every human does what they can to be mentally well. I want to feel good. all want to come home, but we don't. And we do things that don't work as effectively, as Elizabeth said earlier, know. Oh, man, it a quote. I had it and it literally left my brain. Hold on, go on back real quick, because I had said, had really liked it. Oh, like you had good boundaries. I would also say you had good behaviors, but it was just in a specific context that doesn't work here. It's now maladaptive, right? so everyone, everyone has experience at some point. mean, God, I've been to Catholic churches, I've to Lutheran churches, I've been to Massbury churches, non-denominational churches, there's a wealth of people. But I also want to say to people who will be getting a story, like it's a journey, you know, not going to be perfect right away.

Renae: Daniel, you're not going to be perfect ever. Okay, just let it just let it just let

Daniel: I know, I know, I know, I know, know, know, we're all we're all still, we're all still learning so we're, we're getting right up against time.

Renae: So there's a couple of things. So Chris, this point is really important to in the chat. So, the, the back and forth of, of knowing how much to disclose and if it's, if it's glancing a tomb where you're, you're holding back because you've recognized that they're holding back to and it's too much. I literally had people go, I can't look in the eyes because you're gonna look into my soul and they will not make eye contact with me because I won't write Daniel.

Daniel: I know, I've said that and I also know other people who've told you that.

Renae: Yeah, that's great. Right, so it's the, like, how did you know? And that's, that's part of it. The feeling felt it's the entering into the emotional reality. It's the, it's the seeing the patterns that are happening because our hyper vigilance is, is part of our hyper vigilance in that biological connection of attunement. And so that, that it's a, it's a, it's a privilege, it's honor, and it's also responsibility to enter into that. And it's a practice for sure. So I love this incredibly rich conversation. It tells me that we have exactly the right people who are here for this, for this TraumaWise ministry summit, not just the summit, but the community and continuing this work, because it requires all of these perspectives, all of these experiences, and, and all of this humble approach to each other to say, I'd love to learn from you and share with you and together, you know, Marjorie, it's, we're, it's not going to be a top down. It's just not going to be a top-down; it never has been a top-down because the people of God are not top-down. The people of God are the people of God. And so it's going to be all of us together, rising tide, that rising tide Marjorie together, and where we are the adults in the room. So here we go. We're going to do this together. So I want to thank all of the folks for being here today. And Wendy, I know that we didn't leave a whole lot of room for you to chime in. But we know that you have a lot of wisdom and that you'll share it with us in all the other ways as well. so thank you everybody for being here. For those who are watching the replay, don't forget to put hashtag replay into the comments that we can respond to you in the Facebook group. of course you can reach out and we'll have the contact information for all of our speakers. believe I updated everybody's socials on the page I had to review last night. But you can reach out to our speakers. Wishing you all the bestest Tuesday in the rest of your day and I will see you all.