Embodying a Trauma-Informed Gospel: Faith, Safety, and Sacred Support (with Chris Haughee)

Renae: All right. Well, hey, Chris, I am so glad that you're here. Do I need to call you Reverend, Reverend Dr. Chris?

Chris: No, hardly anybody does that. I'm glad to just be called Chris.

Renae: Excellent. Well, welcome. And I'm so glad to be able to have this time with you today, as we're putting together the great conversations for the TraumaWise ministry Summit. So welcome.

Chris: Thank you. So pleased to be included.

Renae: Absolutely. Well, I, um, if you would, wouldn't mind doing a brief introduction for people? Just a little bit about what you're doing right now, maybe? And then I'm sure that we'll unpack a little bit more about your history as we go along.

Chris: Yeah. Well, currently, I'm working with an an outfit you probably have guessed what the name is. So if you're if you're viewing this mirror ministries, we are an anti sex trafficking ministry that's based out of the Tri Cities Washington, Tri Cities is Kennewick, Richland, Pasco, if I know there, there are other parts of the country that claim to be the Tri Cities but at least in this area, we, we hold that title and have been in this particular work for a little less than a year. And excited about just being being somebody that can support the boots on the ground advocates, bring some of my knowledge of trauma informed ministry to the organization, we're a medium sized organization in the sense that there are 17 of us some of those full time some part time. But yeah, working with 80-some victims and survivors of sex trafficking on a kind of rotational basis. And, obviously, they come with a lot of trauma, and a lot of deeply felt spiritual needs and emotional needs and relational needs. And, and there's no quick fix, as most of us in the trauma affected ministry space, understand. There's no silver bullet, there's no Jesus magic wand that's going to get that's going to fix it all. So I, personally, I'm an adoptive parent, I've got two trauma affected children, that that we were so blessed to adopt from China. They are 17 and almost 17, and while they are siblings, they are not biologically related. We get that question a lot. They're from two totally different regions of China. And my daughter sort of deals with her trauma history by being the super overachiever, perfectionist, and my son is kind of the opposite end of that spectrum. And you can fill in the blanks there. So. So come to this work with just a lot of personal investment in it as as a parent, as somebody seeking to educate and advocate. And then as somebody that's been involved in parish ministry, or congregational ministry all along, and trying to make sure that we have spaces in our churches, for those that have significant adversity or trauma that they're working through.

Renae: Thank you. Yeah, I believe that we met probably through, through PACES Connection, which was ACES Connection at the time, (Chris: Yep, back in the day), back in the day, and the, when, when looking online for trauma informed ministry work and things that are really robust in thought. And I came across a post of yours that had to do with a book that you actually was a curriculum for churches, which I'm going to, It's..

Chris: Really Strange and Smoldering Wakes,

Renae: That's the one, that's the one, and and I purchased it and read through it. And it was one of those moments that I had where I thought,"Oh, I so appreciate This because, like me, this is something that is both theologically sound and rooted in neuroscience." And that's there are there are some folks that are doing that. Yeah. But but not as many. It's

Chris: a fairly small tribe.

Renae: Absolutely, absolutely. So I'd love to hear. I know that, you know, and I'm is, you know, and the people who are watching this probably have caught on at some point that I'm also an adoptive mom of two children with complex developmental trauma. And that was my entry point into it. I was already doing ministry, but I had no idea about this type of ministry and the needs of it. And I'd love to hear what prompted, what was, is there even, even a moment like that you realize, I, I need to be a voice in this work. Like you've mentioned the word advocate a couple of times? And I would absolutely say, yep, that's a great title for you. That is, what a lot of what you're doing that I see. What can you give us a glimpse into maybe that flash point of moving from gathering information, to, I'm checking this out to the world? Yeah.

Chris: Well, it's all kind of wrapped up. I mean, I think God's been in control of everything from the get go. But, you know, in a whirlwind Season of Our Lives, personally, as a family, professionally as a minister, and, and just sort of vocationally kind of trying to figure out what, what my calling is going to be going forward, there was a season of time where the church that I was serving, was, was going through a split. And I was an associate pastor in that congregation. And there was a lot of a lot of tension around, how do I carry myself with integrity? In these moments? How do I, how do I embody my faith in ways that I feel are true to the gospel, but but I also have, from my own family of origin story, really strong people pleasing tendencies, I don't, I don't want anybody to think I'm, I'm mean, or that I don't like them, or I'm being judgmental. And that was a really difficult season, in the midst of that our children were very young, kind of kindergarten age, and that my son, in particular, his transition to school is very difficult. He, we, we had to fight to get him on an IEP. And then once he was on an IEP, we had to fight for the accommodations that he was supposed to be getting, because he, he, he presents as a kid that has it fairly well together, as a lot of trauma affected people do, they can really fake you out good, Until, Until their, their system is just oversaturated and they've had too much and they can their capacity to deal is just done. So in those you know, in those moments, when, you know, as a, as a little first grader, he was just done with it. He he got to the point where you know, the school was like: "Well, you know, we could we could charge him with the assault on his teacher if we wanted to", like awesome way to start this conversation. You know, and, and just seeing the depth of his struggle and how that affected him on any number of levels. Just and then trying to find a place of worship after the fallout from the church split, looking for a safe harbor, then landing at Intermountain, which is a very well known institution in the state of Montana for trauma informed ministry and care of children from from different difficult places and spaces and situations, landed a role as areas chaplain and found that all of this you know, these streams were just all coming together at a moment where I was just asking a lot of questions and put some of those questions out on the blog, the faith based community at at PACES Connection. Again, Aces connection at that time, and found that there was a lot bigger audience for what I was wrestling with than I thought there was going to be. I was doing it mostly as an exercise for myself and it started out as a blog article was Is Jesus's Ministry Trauma Informed, because as I was starting to learn about the basis for for trauma informed ministry and what, you know, the Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Administration had as a as their definition of trauma informed entity or institution. I was like, Okay, this is great. But I, I don't, I'm, I'm not the type of person who feels like my faith is over here, and then the rest of my life is over here. I want it. I want to see how those things connect. And for me, as a Christian, it all comes back to Jesus. So that was that was the that was the initial kind of wrestling was, is do I see Jesus in this? And do I see Jesus in this authentically, not as something that I'm placing on him and reading into him? But But Can I Can I read the scriptures in a way that's faithful and sees that? Okay, wow, like this stuff really resonates with the heart of the gospel. And you could probably guess where I landed. And in that, that conversation, it's the curriculum and everything that felt followed.

Renae: Absolutely. Well, and I and I appreciate the the ability to bring together all how, all of these different pieces, inform the conversation, even think that the phrase 'trauma informed' gets us into little stickiness, sometimes because people think it's like, I've been informed about trauma, therefore I am trauma informed,

Chris: Or, 'I went to a conference.'

Renae: And what we're, what the with the, the hope is, is that by unpacking even the word trauma informed, it is, my, the, these are all of the ways that I've become trauma informed by trauma in forming my understanding of life, and informing my own efficacy or the ways that I can have impact on the world of, of challenges of all of these things. It's informed by these experiences, by these relationships. And I am forever changed in the way that I see the world because trauma has informed how I'm going to see the world. And so I think that we, you know, that it becomes that struggle, because of academia, and I'm going to put some church thought about that into me church, thought leadership become committed, and very academic and intellectual, where it's hear the words, I've told you the words now you should be able to understand the words and do the things. Right, as I told you the words. And trauma informed education is a lot like that sometimes, where it's the it's the words, not the experience. And so I would love to hear a little bit about even your transition from that alongside ministry, from, oh, the words without action don't actually mean anything.

Chris: Yeah, well, I liked your setup for that question quite a bit. Because I've been somebody, like a lot of people that are kind of naturally introverted, always a deep feeler. But someone who projects as mostly a thinker, you know, that I that I will address an issue through well, how do we how do we address how we should think about this? And how should we plan for this? And I think if you're, if you're truly entering a space where you're becoming trauma informed, in the sense of this actually going to do somebody including yourself some good there, has to be a marriage of, of that kind of thinking, feeling peace. You can't, you can't really reason your way to empathy. You, you are either finding ways to connect with people and how they're feeling in that moment or not through through actual experience by tapping into something that that you have gone through that's that's similar and it's not. It's not like saying to somebody who's like I've I've never been a teenage girl that's been sex trafficked, never going to be a teenage girl that's been sex trafficked, but I can find something within myself that taps at the same root wounds that that causes and then from there, some empathy can spring forth. And and then I can operate from a space of greater understanding and compassion. And that's, that's the absolute necessity of, of the work is that it's not about as useful is, you know, going to a TraumaWise conference, for instance online is, is, or going to, or being a part of some other educational experience, forming a group around trauma informed principles, as, as excellent as all of those resources are, it will, it will not substitute from the lived experience piece of just getting out there, and trying it, and then messing up, you know, 95 times out of 100, more than likely, and then kind of coming back and saying, okay, all right. Here's, here's where I missed, here's, here's, here's where I didn't quite understand what I was saying, or the posture that I was taking, or what I was doing, was not connecting with, with those that I want to be able to express my love care and concern for, and to be able to, ultimately to help. So how do we, how do we avoid over intellectualizing it? I think just just doing it, and realizing you're gonna be awful at it, at first, I mean, but like anything that's worth doing, it's worth doing poorly, at first. Like, and I really liked that saying, I, it's not original to me, probably everybody that's hearing this has probably heard some version of that someplace else. But but nobody starts out being awesome at something, it takes practice. And this does too, it takes practice, and, and a willingness to try and fail and have people you really care about screaming in your face, and maybe even get violent with you, physically or emotionally or relationally. Because you're not getting it. And, and that is I found just as a little aside, rather than that scaring us off from entering the space, that should be an encouragement to us. Because what that individual is saying in that moment is, here's somebody that gets me enough, or is trying enough that I can be real with them. Because if they weren't getting upset at our attempt, then what I find is that both with my children and a lot of the trauma affected people that, that the Lord has used me to speak into their lives at some point is that they're really used to people not getting it. And so you'll get the flat affect, or you'll get no response at all, or you'll get something so obviously plastic, it's really hard not to notice that, that that's what you're getting. So when you get some of the realness, even if you've screwed up, you're on the right track. And so that should be an encouragement. So So that's not something that comes with a certificate or, you know, or, or with, you know, a degree, like, you know, I got a doctorate in ministry and trauma informed, you know, we were kind of making it up at the Seminary where I went, because nobody had really done it there before. And that piece of paper doesn't make me a trauma informed Minister, you know, it's that that willingness to continue to enter that space, even when it's really uncomfortable,

Renae: right? Well, there are a couple of really, I think points in there that I'd like to tease out just a little bit. One is, I often say that we, we actually want behaviors from from people, because it gives us an opportunity to identify what the need is behind the behavior, (Chris: right.) And to do our best to meet that need. And if we're seeing a behavior, that means that person has not given up on humanity yet. (Chris: Yes.) Right. Like there's like incredible hope in some of the worst behaviors, because they're saying, they're desperately asking you, can I get a different ending to this story? I have given this script to so many people, are you the one who's gonna be able to decode this and actually meet my need and try to instead of trying to shut me down, and like what a beautiful opportunity it is. Now, sometimes when it's happening to you, it can be terrifying. Because you have you know, we all have a nervous system that's going to respond to threats. And so there's that whole part of our preparation of of what we can do to prepare to practice how we're going to respond. onto things instead of react. And we're also human. But that but having that, that lens of, we're not trying to manage behaviors, we're trying to decode behaviors and celebrate that there's still an opportunity for us to give that person an experience and hopefully repeated experiences are being seen, heard and valued of being respected of all of that. Isn't isn't that at its core, like the work of reconciliation? Right?

Chris: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're, you know, when you're, when you're doing a reconciling work, you're you're trying to find points of connection. Right. And we, I think, so much of our lives, especially in the West is built around comfort, we really we really value comfort, even in the church as as, as the highest ideal, you know. There's like, the gospel and then comfort, or, or if we're being honest, sometimes those two are flipped. And, and the, what you said in terms of the behaviors, and when we see the behaviors, that that should be a sign of hope? Yes, absolutely. Just like, what I was kind of teasing out in that, that last bit of the conversation that you picked up on that thread is that those behaviors are communication, which means that there is there's the line of communication is still open. And that, that ability to decode or to just keep entering the space and be persistently loving and empathetic, even when that behavior is getting you what you think would be the opposite response is that kind of bring this back full circle to the comfort piece. One, it's uncomfortable for us to do that, two, for the trauma affected person, there's something in their neuro system, that is saying that, what is a benefit to them, that will give them true and lasting peace that will, that will allow them to enter a space calmly or situation calmly that that is what gives them discomfort. That there is something really uncomfortable for them in, in what for somebody else is kind of default setting. You know, so I was thinking about this the other day, just in terms of our, you know, the like, one of the primary values of a trauma informed system is that it, it seeks to provide safety for people. Because if you don't feel safe, you're nothing else is happening. Right. But that safety is interpreted differently. For any number of us for, for some of us, we come from a certain family where, you know, the TV was always blasting in the background, and people were used to kind of what what some would call arguing or shouting at one another, and pots got banged in the in the kitchen that was just that was the default setting, right was a certain level of noise and chaos. And, and that is his comfort. And so when those individuals come into a home, like, like the one that my wife and I have, have built, where it's very peaceful and calm, you know, the TV's very, hardly ever on, if somebody raises their voice, like, like my son, and some of it is because he's on the spectrum, but there are times when he's agitated enough that I can be speaking at this volume exactly like I am to you. But say to him something like, you know, Hey, buddy, I'm gonna need you to pick up your clothes, it's getting skin a little smelly in in the room here and, and we need to do something about that. He, he literally, his nervous system is saying that I'm shouting at him. And so to practice that, that curiosity, of like, okay, what I'm saying what I'm doing, I'm getting a response that seems really out of frame for, for my sense of, of how I should be received in this moment. Yeah. What's what's going on inside this little person or this big person? Yeah. For for how, why? Why are they interpreting this and what I'm doing as not being safe, right? Because that that is ultimately what when we see especially the kind of explicit behaviors is that kid is saying, I don't feel safe. Either that I don't feel safe in the setting or internally, something's going on where I don't feel safe. And I need to show somebody because it's really really scary?

Renae: Yeah, absolutely. One is in safety is, you know, I use the term felt safety a lot. And it's the first our TraumaWise Summit it's the first day is always about safety and second connection and then the third is co-regulation and the the felt safety piece gets so tricky for for people who struggle to understand that that, it is, you cannot tell anyone that they are safe or not. It is a showing, it is a showing of safety, it is an awareness, it is attuning in, it is in there. I think that even the you mentioned like the hierarchy of like gospel and comfort. I think that even the term of of gospel to some people, becomes the Jesus came to die for my sins and save humanity and get the dee, dee dee verses, well, there was a gospel that was before Jesus died too, he send people out to say, hey, I want you to bear witness of this God who says, I am with you, no matter what, I will never leave you or forsake you. And that at the heart of God's reconciliation and connection to humanity and this desire of saying like, hey, regardless of your behaviors, regardless of the of the struggles that you're having, regardless of all these things, and all these ways that you desperately want me and yet completely reject me, sounds super familiar. Regardless of all that, I'm still going to pursue you, I'm still going to be present, I'm still going to create a way for repair, I'm not going to shut the door. And that that, to me is the heart of the gospel that Jesus dying is an example of that. But you know, but there's, that we we, that's our our embodiment of that like to lay that out in how we hold that unconditional positive regard for people, right? Like your behaviors do not dictate the fact that you are worthy of love and care and attention and compassion. Be walked with that what a great opportunity, we have to to embody that, actually.

Chris: Absolutely. Yeah. And isn't that exactly what we see, you know, to kind of bring up something that was mentioned earlier? Isn't that what shows us how do you how trauma informed Jesus was, because as you're, as you're speaking, the image that the Holy Spirit brought to mind was, was that parable of the teaching of the sheep and the goats, you know, and that Jesus saying, Every time you did it to the least of these you did to me. So there's people, there are people that are enacting the gospel, that have no idea that that's what they're doing. And that there are people that think they're enacting the gospel that are in fact, not enacting the gospel. And, and that, that can either like really freak us out as committed Christ followers, or it can cause us to lean in and say, Okay, well, then what are what are the things that I'm seeing in Jesus's teaching that, that show me, I would be doing this well? And, and it's those points of, of connection and like you said, that unconditional positive regard, the willingness to continue to leave the door open for for conversation and understanding that I might possibly be wrong and how I'm reading a situation, that humility, I think humility is so important to a trauma informed approach. Which is, you know, all these things are countercultural. All of them are,. That Jesus knew exactly what he was doing. He wasn't, I mean, when he was turning over tables, and was, was preaching and teaching and given the Beatitudes, he knew exactly what he was doing. He was saying, the systems that you put in place as humans to interact with one another, to build hierarchies of who's on top. And, and knowing that, that whether it's, it's by merit or birth, or skin color or or nationality, (Renae: gender), gender, gender, even gender expression, some of the things that, that, that as somebody who has very firm convictions about some of those things, to realize that even even in those things, so that I can enter into a space with humility. And say. If, if I if I want to seek to I, like St. Francis's prayer, if I want to, I want to be understood, I better seek to understand. If I want to be listened to I better listen well. And, and we, we don't do those things well, when we think we've already got it figured out. So humility has to be the starting point, Curiosity has to be the starting point, rather than I'm coming into the situation as the adult, or as the parent, and I'm, what I'm looking for, then one of the phrases that we use quite a bit at Intermountain that I've carried forward with me is, are we looking for compliance, or are we looking for to build an alliance? You know, am I looking for you to do what I need you to do in this moment, so that I feel comfortable, and we can get along with our day, whether that's, you know, get out of the, you know, get out of Safeway, or the shopping center, without causing a scene. Or if that's the the teacher in the classroom, saying, I just simply there are 27 other students here, I cannot stop to deal with your… So there are, there are times when compliance is necessary. And we, we, we can coach people and in when those times and spaces are, but that is temporary. We get we get compliance for a very brief moment of time. And usually, I know, for myself, when compliance has been forced on me, I resent it, it does not build relationship. It does not bring reconciliation. Those things that do as what are when somebody through their empathy through their, through their care, through their, through their commitment to ensure that I feel safe, that felt safety, peace. They're looking to say, You know what you and I, let's be aligned, let's let's form an alliance, and go to the same place together a place that we desire to go. And that's, that's what I love about your ministry, the work that you're engaged in, those that are part of this relatively small tribe that I hope is growing through this conference is so that we don't have to be the most important voices in in Christianity, to know that, that we've got it. We understand it. This is gospel, this is the truth. And Jesus loves us and loves others enough that he honors this work. And it's a blessing to be a part of it. Even if we feel like we're, we're looking around, and not a lot of other people get

Renae: Well, and I add i i appreciate even that, that bringing out that term compliance, because compliance, the way that I have viewed it, it's it is such a high control, false goal. Right. And we're we are when we demand compliance, we are saying you were it's a form of invalidation of the other person and their needs. Right? So I'm not talking about emergencies in emergencies we want people to comply with directions to get to safety. Right? So that's a different thing. But when we talk about compliance to to follow a standard of someone else's desired behavior, but we would we do that, at the risk of losing our own human selves, our authentic selves, our voice, our efficacy, our ability to have impact, we are not see heard and valued because all of that is invalidated and in demand for compliance. And I've gone so far to say that that thou shalt not murder would follow underneath those, those high control situations, because we're we're killing who God created that person to be for own comfort and safety. .

Chris: Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. I'll have to think on that a bit. I do. I do think, I mean, the reason that we, we tend towards compliance and control is because it's measurable. I mean, there isn't an IEP in the world that hasn't been written without compliance goals, right. That's what we, that's where we can benchmark. There, there isn't a work setting where compliance isn't required to some degree because we've got to be have a job description, and I'm

Renae: gonna push on that one with you. Let's,

Chris: those sorts of those sorts of things so so That's the other, that's the other part that's awesome about being trauma informed, it's just is that being trauma informed doesn't mean that you're going to avoid trauma, (Renae: no) that you're going to avoid somebody's trauma response, it just means that you go in with a realization of, here's why this, this situation, or this setting, or these stimuli might be a little more difficult for somebody. And then you don't, that your life is, your life as a parent, or as a teacher, or as an educator, or as a pastor is not to try to create a trauma, free trigger free, stimulus free environment, it's impossible. It simply is. But you're you're looking, you're looking for a way to do that as responsibly as possible. I, I seek out safe settings to stretch both of my children, you know, because because my goal as a parent is to prepare them for the world, and where I am not always going to be around. And so I need to, I need to build into their life situations where I know that they're there, their trauma triggers are going to be flipped, and these things are going to happen. So I'm hearing the chime in the background, I don't know if that's a client that's gonna be coming in or not, but we'll find out. So they're just these situations where we want to, we want to set things up for for success or failure, when, when the stakes are relatively low. Yeah. So that they they feel better prepared for when the stakes are a little bit higher.

Renae: Well, it's getting that experience, right, building that neural pathway of rupture and repair, to even go back to the beginning that when we when we think about rupture, and repair relationships, when we're able to say, I screwed this up, I am so sorry, or these are the these are the ways that I can take responsibility for what I've done here. Repair we're showing there is a pathway back. And when we are creating those low stakes situations where we're saying, I'm going to need, I'm going to purposefully allow your stress level to be increased here, because we're going to build some capacity, that that rupture repair is the like the rupture of their safety bubble with the repair work is we're building capacity, and we're doing it in safety that says, hey, like, this is gonna feel really icky. And I'm here, just as if you were an infant, and you're convinced that you were going to die, if I didn't hold you refeed, you, your body's going to have that same response right now and this distress, and I'm here to say, I've got you, I've got you, like we're gonna build that capacity, and we need that rupture and repair. So we don't, it's not that we will create spaces that that are the utopian of not having stress or challenges or those types of things. It's that we continue to bear witness, and we don't leave or forsake. And I think that's the part that that we miss is that we the the sympathy empathy compassion spectrum is that I can feel bad 'Oh, that's so sad', right? Versus I am with you and compassion I am suffering with I am walking alongside. And I'm I am because I, I've built the capacity, gonna go ahead and put my personal needs to the side for this moment, and walk alongside and be in your emotional reality. So that you know you're not alone and that there's a way out. So I'm going to hold that, that line out, and we're going to be here until you're ready to go. And that's, that's a different use countercultural. It is a different way. And yet, here we how many examples of Jesus and then whether it's other people embodying that to throughout scripture that we get to see like this. This is at the heart of of that trauma informed because it's saying they're telling the full truth. We're telling the full truth about the heart and saying, and that's not all that there is. There is something there's something on the other end too.

Chris: help. Absolutely. beautifully put. Oh, thanks.

Renae: So I have a hot button question I'm gonna ask. Okay. So here it is, is it you could and I'm not bagging on that the church is a whole I am talking about the taking a look at that there are some 10 things that work to be, there is work to be done. I would think that the church, the is the not the organization, and not the building, but the people of God, should be the safest group of people to be around. Because of this beautiful example in relationship of of that we've just been talking about that has been shown to us so many times of the way to walk forward and compassion and love and unconditional positive regard and be with people. Why do you think it might be so darn hard?

Chris: Hmm, Why is it hard to live up to our highest ideals? That is a wonderful question. And I think as a pastor, you know, going on 30 years in some sort of pastoral role, had lots of practice with those tensions of the of those that gathered together for community, okay, that's a formal congregation or not. Of that a lot of times what draws us together in community around Jesus, is that the world is crazy, we're hurting, and we want to, we want to find someplace safe. So all of those wonderful things that we just talked about, we want to create for other people. However, when when I do that, what is going to make me feel safe and comfortable in a space may look entirely different than what what that's going to mean for somebody else. And so we, we find that the really little petty arguments around groups of Christians have gathered together in congregations or fellowships, or churches or denominations if we want to go big is that there, there are some institutionalized structures that have been created to say, this group of people when they meet here in this space, this is what what we expect, because this is what we've, this is what we are comfortable with. Right? So and then, then we have this certainly isn't the cause for the different expressions of the church. But I think it's, you know, it's, it's correlation. It's not causation. That's why some people that that like a little more energy and enthusiasm and activity might tend towards a certain expression of church, and somebody that likes something quiet, and contemplative, where other other senses are being heightened, and maybe there's there's incense burning, or candles, and it's lowly let my tend towards another setting. So they formed communities around us, right? They're comfortable. And, and this is a place where they experience the presence of God. And now you as a new family, or as a new pastor, or as the Sunday school teacher, or youth leader, whoever you're, you're entering into that space, and you're saying, you know, what, what we're doing doesn't work for some people. And it would be a very natural response for them to kind of say, Yeah, duh, if we're, like, we've, we've designed this for us. But if when you draw that to their attention, and see that their, their goals and their desires and their, their, their ideals, to want to express love and acceptance in genuine care and be a safe and welcoming space are at odds with some of the some of their, their default settings that they're not even aware of. And I often say to my congregation, they call them blind spots for a reason. It's because we don't see them. Right, you know, and we even got into this yesterday. I was teaching we're, we're going through revelation, which is an interesting book, to try to approach from a trauma informed angle. And we have a gentleman in our congregation that every Sunday he wants us to pray for revival and revival revival and and and I said, You know what, let's, let's dig into what that means. This is because I'm, I don't have to see the Holy Spirit speaking to me or it's my own conscious, but I feel like I need to confess something right now, I said, I said, there have been times in my past when I prayed for revival, mostly because what I'm saying is I'm getting less and less comfortable in the culture. And, and I would like the culture to reflect me more so that I feel more comfortable. And if it has the added benefit of more people coming to my church, then I my status and my worth this elevated because I can look at something external and say, look at what a good job I'm doing. I said, okay, if I'm really being honest, and that's my definition of revival and my motivation behind it, is that something the Lord's gonna honor? So I've had the blessing to preach and teach in a gazillion small churches all over specially Montana, but the Pacific Northwest. And, and, more often than not, I'm entering into congregations that are aging, that are that are on the decline that are small, that are convinced about all the things that they're not. And I say, you know, what, you may be exactly what somebody needs, because you are not large enough, young enough, rich enough to have the arrogance to say, we don't need to try something new. Or we don't need to meet somebody where they're at, or, or this is the way we've always done things. Now. They're certainly those some of those settings, the reason that they're smiling and shrinking and aging is because they have they've locked in on that. But those that have held on that, that remnant, I find that more often than not, the reason that they're sticking it out is because they have a hopeful future. And they just don't know, they have so depleted their sense of self, they don't think they have anything to offer. I said, You know what, for the trauma affected person, they need the structure of your surface, if you're a liturgical church, that makes them feel very comfortable to know exactly what to expect. Absolutely. They, they don't, they don't want to enter a church that's loud and sensory, and blasting them and where the pastor's shouting and yelling at them, they need this sort of space. They want people that that know them by name, but also know them well enough to be able to read that this is not a Sunday to approach them. You are all those things. Yeah. I said, so I have, I have great hope for the church, that in all of our expressions that that we can do a better job of, of living out those values that you said. And I think the times that we don't jump back to something we said earlier, as is that we're not entering the space humbly enough to say, to say, could it be that that that I'm not expressing the gospel, the good news? This this need for for felt safety quite as well as I think I am. Absolutely. Yeah, it's just go ahead.

Renae: I just really, I so appreciate that. And, you know, I, feeler, I'm gonna, I will edit this part out. Well done. Thank you, Chris. I still appreciate everything that you have shared in your time with us today. And that we have a the tool that you're graciously giving the participants, which is your ministerial approach to trauma informed ministry, as far as looking at the SAMSA hear that the characteristics of what's trauma informed care and practice and saying what does this look like, from an industry perspective, it's such a rich document. And so I'm so thankful for you to share that with us. And we'll also be linking to some of the other resources of things that you have worked on as well as some other, your social media profiles and even maybe some things that you're done on PACES connection so that people can continue this dialogue. Because just as all of these different bodies of believers and people gathering, to say, hey, we we want to be able to do this live together in a in a in a beautiful way. And it takes all of those different expressions to make up what is going to be the best expression of God's people on this earth. It's the same I think the work that we're doing here it's it takes all of our different perspectives and voices and, and work. And when I say to everyone, we're all experts, we are I have a PhD in me. Alright. I'm gonna confer that on myself. I am Dr. Of Renae. And, and so in your your you have you got two PhDs, but you you're an expert in your life and in your In your spaces, and so is everyone else. And so hearing those perspectives and learning from each other and, and wrestling together with that respect and humility and openness and curiosity is the way forward, right? It's incremental, takes time and so thank you for being so present in this space and for being so faithful to the space. And we're just so glad that you're here today. Thank you so much

Chris: Thanks. Well, I appreciate the opportunity. And I know that, Renae that you've included the ways that people can get a hold of me we're all busy people, right? But I when I have somebody reached out to me, I do my darndest to get back to them and let them know that I care about their question or their their situation and if I can't address it, to kind of point them in the right direction, at least and and that's a great part of being a part of these conferences is the opportunity to to network and connect with people and to grow your tribe. Because we need we all need a tribe. You absolutely do.

Renae: Thank you so much friend.