When Tender Spots Connect (Part 2): Responding with Compassion and Presence (with Anna Hornbostel)

Anna: Yeah, because I think so often, you know, going back to what I said earlier, we don't want to witness somebody being in pain, not only because it makes us uncomfortable, but because, if most of us could, we would be, you know, Pollyanna, I think deep down right, most of us were like, I would love for the world to be all sunshine and roses all of The time, even though I think most of us also know that we would not grow and not you know, we know the reality of it, but sometimes I think we would live in a Disney movie and not want to.

Renae: I just want to break I think that's mine. For me, I It's the the the terminal, what the terminal illness version of mental health challenges, when you're in a family with someone who for whom there is no good prognosis and and it's not tenable, and the life, quality of life is very poor, and there's nothing to be done other than to pray and witness and hold that space. It's so that's the part that I feel like is, and I think it's exhausting. It's exhausting for me, but for the people around me, because they know to ask, How are things going? Is is a tricky question, and and so I've had to make it okay with my people to say I can't talk about my kids right now. I can't talk about that part of my life right now. I can do what's in front of me, which is this right now, because. It's just too big, and I haven't had either out of trying to process it. And I and I think that the, you know, one of the best there's, like, two really beautiful examples in Scripture, one having to do with with Job and his friends, and that the they did a such a good job when they were with him, until they opened their mouths,

Anna: they sat in the ashes. For is it like seven days? It was they it was a long time. It was a long time

Renae: they did their job to be present and to hold that space, right? You know, I that's that compassion to suffer with. And then they will started giving their opinions, and that's when it went off the rails. And, you know, eventually God got involved and said, Hang on, y'all all, y'all are wrong, and here's what's up. But I think that piece, and then I think also, you know, speaking about that, Jesus wept in the garden. Jesus also wept when his best bud died on his best bud, but you know me, Lazarus, and he he went and he knew, he knew what was going to happen. He knew that there was going to be this resurrection, and he still embodied the grief and said, I am with you, so I'm not. I'm I can raise this child from the dead, and I'm still gonna be compassionately responding with you and saying that this is the correct human expression to have here, as is to have that, that that loss evident in my, in your, in your body. And so could have totally dismissed it. Oh, I got it. I'm the King of King. She's like, calm down. And it wasn't that at all. It was very much a Yep, this is the time and space for this. And I think that that tells us something really important, that if the person who could make it all, Pollyanna, who can raise people from the dead, who can restore anything, who can heal anything, said, Nah, we're going to pause and sit in this I think That tells us something.

Anna: I think we need to, like, say, oh my gosh, I really wish I could fix this for this person, and I have to set that aside. No, sometimes I think I do a lot of kind of visualizing and things where I'm like, I'm going to set that in a basket and pick it up later, because that's not what they want, right or need right now, right? I'm going to, I'm going to take off my experience, you know, I talk about taking off glasses, right? I'm going to take off my glasses, and I'm going to put their glasses on and see what the world looks like, put them their shoes and see what the world looks like, and set me aside and also give myself that grace of, oh my gosh, I said a really stupid thing, because we all do, and I really hope that I can repair that and say, Hey, I said the stupid thing, and I care and I love you, and I'm so sorry that I said This, dude, and

Renae: I think it there is a there's a like a marker for us in that that if we say something when we're trying to help somebody, and we say something that ends up being being hurtful, if we are defensive about the fact that we said something was hurtful, it Does maybe speak to our intention of saying the thing. If we said it to serve them and it was altruistic, we'll be like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. This is what I was trying to do. Please tell me I could do better. If we were doing it to comfort ourselves, we're probably going to be defensive if they tell you that it hurt them, right? Like there's something to note there. And again, it's our discomfort with it. And I think also the, there's some, some ministry hot spots when it comes to, like theodicy, like the Why does God allow these things to happen? And Is God really good conversation around this and that curiosity also needs to be paired a little bit with humility to say, like, I don't, you know, I don't get to I going back to Joe. Did you hang the stars in the sky? I don't think so. We actually don't know the the scope and the breadth of it all and and what God's plan is in it, and what, what God will do with it. And so there's a there's a piece of sitting in the mystery with people saying it doesn't make sense. And it's not fear. And that lament, like, God's okay with that,

Anna: yeah, I always have you read the song, he is very okay with us, and yet it's almost like we get scared, you know, like, oh my gosh, I'm going to get zapped by lightning because I'm confused. And I always think of that, that line from Aladdin, racist, itty bitty living space. I always think that's what my brain is compared to God's living space, right? So of course, God's like, yeah, we have these retractable awnings in the back of my house, and every spring we have little birdies who try desperately to build nests where it is not going to be a good idea, because they are retractable, so they have a wind sensor, so they will retract, and that will be devastating. Or if we turn off them off, the possibility of them the awnings flying off the back of my house is also going to be devastating for the little birdies. And I just think every year, this must be what God feels like sometimes, where, where I'm trying to build my nest I'm wearing my sweetheart, sweetheart. I know you don't understand that this isn't the great place to do that, right? But my my understanding of this is so much bigger than yours, yeah. And I know you think this is the great place, but my understanding is so much bigger than yours. So every spring, I am reminded of that lesson, yeah, that his perspective is he sees the whole awning, the whole yard, he understands, and I only see, Hey, this looks good, right,

Renae: right? And that in that there, there are so many messages about why people get to enjoy certain things in life, or why people experience sorrow and trauma in life that are are in that man made understanding the best way that we can make meaning of it right. And I remember when my husband and I were also experiencing our infertility journey, and we, we went for prayer after a service to to one of the prayer rooms in a church, and one of the elders came in and heard our story, and then proceeded to pray that we would deal with any unconfessed sin in Our life that's keeping us from becoming pregnant. And I was just stunned. I was just stunned. So I'm like, I, I mean, I didn't, I didn't say, like, hey, like, is a G scripture. I'm a pastor. Where is this coming from? And I get it, but it's that it's coming from a a fear space of we need to have a church with members in it. So we need people to procreate. So we need to, like, really encourage people to have babies. And so we gotta attach some, some weight to it. And there is some scripture talks about, you'll be if you're blessed you have children. So let's put that together, but it has nothing to do with Jesus.

Anna: And I also think, you know, there's this idea I've said a lot of times I grew up and part of my as a pastor's kid grew up in the church. One of my ways that I describe my what we call reproductive story, right? It's the story that I told myself about how Parenthood would be for me, and the way that it got formed was this idea that God is good, babies are good. So God gives good people, babies. That that is the messaging if I were to, you know, get down into its little, little bits. In this little version of it is that's and I think that there's so many of us, but that's what's been taught to us. And yes, God is good, and yes, babies are good, and God's goodness is not the shape of a baby, other than, if you want to say baby Jesus, right? Like, maybe, maybe we could define, define that. But that has nothing to do with infertility, with, you know, with how God maybe has different callings and different experiences for different people. I don't, and at the end of the day, I don't know. I don't know why. I know what I have been able to do differently with my life and the lessons I have learned, and I can take all of those with me, and I can still say, You know what gab I really hope you tell me why? To Heaven and. My brain is big enough to understand it, because sometimes I don't like this. I will carry this always and be I will never understand why my life, that story that I wrote about how I thought it would go, why that wasn't the one that I got. And I can hold that tender spot, and I can see that's a that's always going to be a tender spot of mine. Yeah. And then the resilience and in all of the other things, I am so great that that God has used it. But it doesn't take away from the fact, you know, it's like, I, it's like, losing all in, hey, I can get a prosthetic. I can learn how to move my body in new ways. I can do all of those things. But ultimately, there's still a very visible reminder

Renae: of losing something, yeah, and I think there that just the grace piece of it, that we, we don't know everybody's stories. We've known each other for a while, and we don't know you and I, and we still don't know each other's a bunch of stories and a bunch of things. And so we don't we don't know how it doesn't mean we don't talk. It means we go in and and we ask questions, we ask for permission. Oh my gosh, if we could just get that thing together, asking for consent, asking for forgiveness. In it's a it's the openness that as a human, I'm going to get things wrong, and I don't want to, and I don't want to cause hurt, and so I'm going to ask for grace, and I'm going to extend grace that if someone's being snippy with me, that there's probably somewhere there is a loss, because there there's a there's a fear, there's a scarcity, which means they're feeling an injustice because they and then there's a lack of trust, because they Don't trust that everything's going to turn out okay, whether that's based in God or not, right? And so there's this, there's all of this complication before I've ever walked in the room. And so for instead of me saying, well, that person was a jerk, I can say, okay, there must be something that is causing some jerk like behaviors, and it doesn't actually, it probably doesn't have a whole lot to do with me. Let me just do a quick check to make sure I'm not bringing something else in, right? And it's that, that lens of my own, like, what's going on with me? What are my tender spots? And then being aware of those times that I'm like, I I have, I have wanted to go to so many things, and I've said it's not going to be good for me or anyone else if I go to these things, because I know that I still have these hurts, or I know that I'm going through this right now, and I'm not going to be able to show up as my full and authentic self in any way that's going to be helpful for other people. And so if I'm just it's best if I don't go and doesn't mean that I'm not going to be around other folks. It just means that that particular context and I and I gotta be okay with that and and hopefully we'll be compassionate and gracious with each other and say, okay, the timing is not right, because it's again, it's not our timing right.

Anna: I think too, when you walk into that room, you know, holding on to, you know, understanding, what are you bringing in, in terms of your you know, shoulds right. I know it's absolutely terrifying as a pastor to stand in front of a woman or a couple who are in this deep, deep grief, and trying to understand why God isn't blessing them with a baby, or why their baby died. You know, we want those whys to make so much sense, and trying to formulate that in a way that that can be taken in is is impossible, because the loss is enormous. This losses, you know, and there's a multitude of losses I just always speak to this. This one is being the closest to my experience, but also holding into the I think most people would be okay with that humility of I I don't know. I know God is good. I know it's really hard to see. I know God is good, and I know it's really hard to see, yeah,

Renae: and we have such a beautiful opportunity in those spaces just to embody God's promise that he'll never leave us to forsake us. And God doesn't say, I'm going to wave my magic wand, because if anybody has one, it's God, yeah, um, I'm going to make it all better. And if that's not the answer, the answer is, I'm with you in. Sorrows with you in the joys, and I'm with you and and I'm I'm pursuing you, and I'm listening. I've been going through a lot of scripture of the you know, God sees everything and listens and and notices everything, and that we it, that presence, we get to be that embodiment of the presence that incarnational witness. And so it is the capacity of witnessing that is not trying to fix it, that is not trying to even trying to make meaning of it. It's that's not what it's the time is for now, you know that's not the timing of the timing during the grief is to is to name the injust talk, I'm going to go back and say there's a whole book in the Bible lamentations, that is, is a like we're lamenting, And it's the injustice peace and that we can't have. We can't have praise without limit, like we can't have Easter without Good Friday.

Anna: One of my favorite stories is when Jesus heals the woman who is bleeding. And where I think people culturally lose things these days, is not understanding how bleeding impacted her life. You know, in the shame and the stigma and the isolation and what always gets me is Jesus had no reason to turn around, none she touched the hem of His garment. She was physically healed. He had zero reason to turn and acknowledge her in terms of her physical healing, but he turned to her after years of this. He acknowledged that she had made him unclean. He took that Shame on him and he called her daughter. I mean the the intimacy of that, the tenderness, the love, the acceptance, I can't even imagine what that must have felt like, just the opening up of healing and possibility that came from this powerful person, right who could heal turning and saying, I see you, you matter. You're important. This thing that you've experienced is important, and I love you so much. I'm going to call you this intimate title of daughter. Yeah. Like my that's been my favorite story, I think throughout my journey, is that idea he had. He just gone on his way. Hey, she's, she's, she's good, taken care of, but he did so much more for her and for us right to lead the way and demonstrate about tender care.

Renae: And you know what's beautiful. I was just reflecting as you were telling that is your preciousness was the same before and after that, at no point was it, oh, now you're more precious. It is honest. I'm naming you this like it wasn't that you became, it's that you've been, you are, that I've always known, I've always known you, and now I get to I now I get to let you see me as I see you. And that's like, what a beautiful a beautiful thing, and it was reflecting to people, the part of that trauma, informed piece of it is the validity of the person, regardless of circumstance, right? That preciousness is in and I will say, for personal experience, that if, if we are and have not come to terms with our own preciousness, because that's not the part of our story. Yet it makes it really, really hard to reflect that to other people in a full way. Yeah,

Anna: I always think of how Jesus said, you know, love God, love your neighbor as yourself. That's what he was telling us, is we have to actually love ourselves first in order to be able to draw from that. Yeah,

Renae: well, I just really appreciate and I know I'm gonna have to edit some things out of this, but I would like to ask you, as we close this out to if you could reflect, for you, people who are are participating in the summit and who are listening on the podcast, if, if someone that is listening right now or watching and they are in a tender season, um. Um, what is? You know, what would what is something that you would want them to hear right now in this moment,

Anna: be gentle with yourself. Be gentle with where you expect yourself to be. Be gentle with where you expect yourself to be able to show up for others, right? I mean, if we're talking about people who are ministering to other people, we put ourselves last so many times and in so many ways. And sometimes we think whether it's physically putting ourselves last, right, or it's just that idea of like, well, I shouldn't let this keep me from I shouldn't let this delay this thing that I wanted you know, all of those went back to the shoulds right and and holding the gentleness of I'm allowed to have tender spots. I'm allowed I have this wonderful opportunity in this person who came to earth to create a space for me to come, right? I always think he said, Let the little children come. And I'm still four years old inside. So I count myself in that, and I hope that you all do too that he told us to come to him. So be gentle. Meet those physical needs too. Don't forget to eat, drink. Um, my favorite is when Doctor Purvis talks about Elijah and how God gave him a snack and a nap, and never, ever discount the power of a snack and a nap, making sure you're meeting those physical needs too. Because when we get in those tender spots and those frustrating spots and those heartbreaking spots, the first thing that we kind of forget to do to eat and drink absolutely have a snack and a now. Have a breath prayer. One of the things that I was encouraged to do during the really dark, dark time in our journey was whenever I would start to doubt God, right, like he doesn't love me. Because that was very loud. I was encouraged to find a song or a verse to cling to, and so I ended up choosing how he loves by David Browder, I can still I'm not going to because I was not blessed when I get to heaven, I'm going to sing like I have already had this conversation with God. I'm going to have the voice that I wish I had on Earth, because it's in heaven, but I do not have that voice, and it's also I will not sing, but I can still sing that entire song 12 years later, because it permeated. He was jealous for Me, Loves like a hurricane. Those images were so amazing. So find a book, you know, a song, a scripture, or something to cling to that reminds you of how much he loves you and that he is there.

Renae: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for your time today with this Anna and for sharing from your own experience, both as a person who's traveled in those dark times and those times of suffering, and then the echoes that have followed from it, and then also from a professional space as you walk with other folks, and then from your ministry leadership space that all of these things coming together, that you would be able to give your wisdom to us, that you've been through your lived experience, because that's what this whole summit is about. That's what TraumaWise is about. So thank you for being part of the community, and thank you for sharing your story. We're so grateful that you were here with us today.

Anna: Thank you for giving us space, for all of us, to learn and be trauma informed and tender and caring with each other, so thank you.