The Ministry of Empathy: A TraumaWise Panel on Compassion, Capacity, and Sacred Community

Renae: All right. Well, I am excited to have this conversation. I'm excited for the people who are joining us, the people who are going to be participating in the, um by watching the replay and, and commenting. And so, um, I think that we will actually get started pretty much right now. I'm just making sure. Okay, great. I think we're all set up there, so we will be watching.

Cerise: Can you hear me? Because I changed mine. Okay, great.

Renae: Yeah. Excellent. Um, so you can feel free. Um, for those who are joining, of course you can chat away, um, in, in the chat as much as you'd like to, and of course we will be, um, opening up for, for questions here and there as well. And so I will start, um, by, um, you know, asking us all to introduce ourselves as speakers here today. And so I will, I'll model that for us. Um, so starting with our name, our title, where we're calling from and um, what we're excited about for this conversation. So my name is Renae Dupuis. Um, I am the founder and CEO of TraumaWise. I'm calling from the Los Angeles area and, um, I'm here because I have brave people who said yes to something brand new that we pivoted toward. And, um, and so we're, we're trying something out here. Um, and I'm a master. I have a master in divinity. I'm a undercover pastor person. I work in human services and culture shifting and all kinds of really fun things. And so, um, I'm honored to hold this space to together a little bit, um, for us today. And, um, the check in question for today is, um, when do you know for yourself that you have moved from spring into summer, from spring into summer. And for me, it's generally in May. I like to think of May as May summer. Um, because there are just too many, too many things and it's too much in lots of spaces. Um, but I am, I am just ready to get to the part where I can breathe a little bit. And so it is when I can feel the, like the end of frenetic energy and the acceptance of it's okay, we, we might be taking baths in the kiddie pool and eating popsicles for dinner. It's totally fine. So that's, that's my, that's my what I know we have to transition. And so, um, I think you were the first to sign in. Um, so if you'd like to, to introduce yourself and then we'll go to Aminah.

Cerise: Uh, I'm Cerise Woodard, I'm a forensic nurse and speaker, trainer, author, all of those things. I am in Maryland. We're we fondly refer to our area as the DMV. Um, so DC, Maryland, Virginia, we're all interconnected here. and spring to summer. That's a good question, Renae. I've never thought about that. So I don't have young kids, so I don't have that school ending and trying to get ready for summer. So that used to be a definitive move from spring to summer. Now it's because the DMV weather can be so crazy. Um, like right now it's ninety five degrees, but you know, it could be fifty tomorrow. So when I can put away my coats is when I've officially moved mentally from, you know, spring to summer.

Renae: Awesome. Thank you. Ninety five. It's not even ninety five here today. Oh. Whew.

Aminah: Hello, hello. It's so good to share space with both of you. It's so good to meet you. Virtually series. And also to see you again, Renae. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited for today. My name is Aminah Vargas-Harris. I am a trauma informed ministry consultant coach. Um, integrating kind of at the intersection of human behavior, um, faith and systems design. Um, so I always like to say I love God people and science. Um, so that's me located in Louisville, Kentucky. Very happy to be here with y'all. Um, interesting enough. It's, uh, about ninety degrees here today. So it's interesting that there is ninety five and here it's about ninety. The weather is, is crazy. I would say that I know that I am internally transitioning from spring to summer. Uh, I start to feel a lot looser, you know, a lot less structured, a lot. A lot more excited and willing to spend time outside. Uh, and then I feel for me, I have young kids, so we've been looking for summer camps since January. So it starts early, but practically in practice in my house, the mental changes change the mental every season. So once we change to mental, it's officially the next season. So that was a fun question. Renae. Thank you for asking.

Renae: Oh, thanks. And I and I, and there is a actually a, a meaning to the question, even though I didn't have it planned ahead of time. Um, but the there's, there's a point to it is that there are all of these cultural cues for us that tell us what's going to happen next that set the stage for what we can expect and provide a sense of either safety or lack of safety or continuity or not continuity. And when we are talking about trauma informed ministry spaces, there are unspoken cultural shifts that happen and cues that are, that are around us, um, that will be interpreted differently for each of us. And so as we're heading into this conversation, um, I already know that our speakers are incredibly, um, gifted at holding that space of curiosity and openness and humility. And I'm going to invite our participants who are watching to, to recognize that you may hear things that are different from your background or a different way that you might express something culturally or experience it. And no one here is giving a value judgment for your experience or your perspective. We are just having a conversation About what it is that we've noticed what we've seen, um, things that have been helpful. We're bringing our lived experience and the wisdom to this conversation. And so that I just wanted to highlight that. Is it from something as simple as when a season changes can vary drastically? Um, but it doesn't mean anybody's wrong or different or othered. It just is that we're having different experiences and we honor that. And so, um, with that, I'd like to start with our first question for, um, our time together. And that is, um, talking about, um, the barriers for implementing trauma informed practices in ministry spaces. And, um, we don't worry for those who are like, oh, why do people always focus on the negative? Um, we're, well, it's, well, we all know it's a little bit easier to find what is not working then is what is working. But we will be talking about things that we where we've seen at work and we've experienced it. But we want to talk about the barriers and, and, and spend a little bit of time of, of sharing what we've seen and experienced and, and why we, you know, what we're, why we're supposing that it's cropping up or what we've discovered or what we've other conversations that we've had. And so I'm just going to posit that question of, um, what do you see as the greatest barrier, um, that you're experiencing? And it can even just be for right now versus historically because maybe that's more helpful. Um, what, you know, what are you seeing? So I feel free speakers to, uh, unmute and share.

Cerise: Our default to Aminah since I went first the last time. And then I'll chime in for sure.

Aminah: Thank you. Um, yeah. Great question. I would say when I first started the work, the biggest barrier was there's a knowledge gap, uh, a knowledge gap around, okay, is this meant for this space? Right. Is trauma informed practices meant for this space? Is that a other thing or is that a clinical thing or is that a agency thing outside of the church? And so that knowledge, knowledge gap created a barrier in and of itself. And I don't think it was for lack of, um, desire to want to create environments that would hold space and comfort, um, and pathways to safety for people. I think it's just not understanding where does that fit within, um, faith work within the church and that that would I would say that was the biggest barrier for me. Um, when when getting started, what about what about you? Siri's.

Cerise: Or me? I, I think the biggest barrier was, or is the different generations. Um, so cultural generations as far as just how different generations process and respond to things. Um, that's been my experience. So I agree with Aminah completely knowledge because that still translate to the different generations, right? That those generations boomers didn't, didn't have the knowledge that we have for various reasons. They didn't even have time to, you know, they were trying to survive certain things. So I think a lot of it is generation. Um, I also feel that a lot of it is just religious religiosity. Um, just. Thinking their understanding of the Bible and how things should be done is right. And the only way things should be done, which would be responding in a religious holy way. So I feel those two things, um, have been my experience as far as barriers, but it's still like, I mean, I already pointed out, it all boils down to knowledge base. Um, some lived experience plays a part in that too. You know, boomers survived a lot, so they just feel people need to tough it out and toughen up and deal with things. Right. Um, so part of it is live experience that contributes to those responses. But yeah, I think it's still all boils down to knowledge and awareness of, um, how to respond in a more trauma informed way and not just solely rely on religion, religiosity.

Aminah: Mhm.

Renae: Yeah. I think for me, the, um, I was, I had already, um, finished my work in seminary, which I did the nice long seven and a half year stroll through my M.Div. because I was working full time and then, um, adopted kid, two kiddos, um, from the foster care system. And that took a quite a bit of my focus and was actually the the starting point for me to understand a lot more about trauma, because I did come from a cultural background that was very much don't come crying to me. Walk it off, rub a little dirt in it. Um, you know, you need to take it to God. Um, and there wasn't, it was very stoic. There wasn't room for the emotional expression and there wasn't room for grief. And, um, and so for me, the, the part where it, I realized that there's kind of a disconnect is I was going through, um, uh, yoga training at the time. So I'm a registered yoga trained person, whatever that means. I can teach yoga. Um, but I took the trauma sensitive track and as I was going through that training and learning more about trauma, I came to a point where I was like, wait a minute, all yoga should be trauma sensitive. And then I was sitting in the the waiting room, and one of my daughters was in therapy and I was writing down some things. I was like really getting worked up about passionately. Um, and then I said, wait a minute. All ministry should be trauma informed. It's not, it's not a, it's not a ministry. Like, you know, our, our soup kitchen or our, um, you know, our deacon ministry or that like every bit of it should be trauma informed. And then, and that's when I realized, oh, we, the, the part of the, the, the disconnect is the cultural piece. Because if you don't believe that, that's what people need, it's not going to be important for you to have that as part of your culture. Right.

Cerise: Totally agree with that.

Renae: And, and so the, the piece about, you know, even culturally. And I'm going to go a little even maybe a little deeper in this question is when, when we talk about, um, the, the culture of the church and, and, and loving people who are imperfect and systems, knowing that the system is imperfect. Um, and so lots and lots and lots of grace in this, but also that there, there might be a disconnect with grieving and lament that doesn't allow for there to be, um, space held for trauma. And, um, that has been brought up before too. And so what have you seen in your work that might intersect with that as well? Where it's the, the, the knowledge of it. You can't even see it because they're, you haven't either had space or you don't have the words, or it's not been part of of what? The eyes that you've had developed to see it.

Cerise: I think you and I talked about this a little bit, Renae, um, where we were saying some houses of worship that culturally they just, like you said, don't allow that space for lamenting because why? Because God is good all the time and all the time. God is good is what we say, right? So what do we lamenting over? He's a good God, so we need to just be positive, have a good outlook. And, you know, whatever has happened has happened for a reason, right? Um, a lot of houses of worship love to fall back on. Everything happens for a reason. As if that is supposed to make my trauma go away, or make it all better, or make it all worth it. And I am. I do. I have a lot of those belief systems also. However, expressing that to someone who is disclosing something about trauma is harmful. Um, expressing that to someone who just loved lost a loved one that everything happens for a reason, etc. is is not helpful. It is dismissing someone's grief. It is dismissing what they're experiencing and how they're feeling, which is not godlike. And if we're talking about Christianity, that's just not how when Jesus, if we're talking about Jesus from the Bible, how he walked and moved on earth, he did not dismiss people's emotions and feelings and experiences. So that's yeah, that's really, um, what I have experienced and, and see in my Christian culture. Cultural reference.

Aminah: Same, similar, very, very similar experience with sort of those bumper sticker statements of like, it'll all work out. It was God's design. He made it happen for a reason. It's all in his plan, right? Um, and I, I've seen it and it, and it's definitely been cringe worthy. Um, but we've had to sort of reframe this thought of, of it's our job to fix it. And this is, this is what we're going to, this is the platitude that we're going to say to fix it or, um, you know, as believers, this is what we are required to do to share goodness or, um, inspiring messages or encouragement and had to shift from, from that perspective into prioritizing human connection, um, meeting people where they are allowing room for space holding kind of, you know, what we mentioned at the beginning of this conversation that everybody's not there. Um, right. Um, if somebody's sitting with you, uh, let's just say on Sunday, Sunday worship and they're grieving or we're at a funeral and we're grieving, or we're at some other homegoing service and we're grieving. That's a beautiful opportunity to build relationship and to bridge connection and then be welcomed in to maybe have some conversations around faith or inspiration or if you're close to that person, offer prayer. But shifting from this is your problem. I'm going to put a damper on it so that I don't have to deal with it and give it to God. And that's sort of, you know, he'll handle it into how can we bridge human connection so that the relationship can be built, but also so that there's an opportunity through relationship to engage in discipleship, to engage in prayer, to engage in Bible study, to engage in whatever method of hope or encouragement. Um, that faith, um, may create a pathway for, uh, in that time of grieving. But I think, I think we've sometimes missed the mark on allowing people to just be, and to just listen and to not have a, a moment where we have to fix it. And again, I don't think it's coming from a place of, um, I think it's coming from a place of misalignment and not necessarily from a place of harm. Uh, doesn't mean it's not doing harm, but, but I, but I do feel that it, it's coming from a place of misalignment and, um, trauma informed practices, but also faith practices because the gospel, like I said, is the gospel is trauma informed, right. Um, and as a Christian, I serve a God that that would not, you know, say, uh, pray about it. I'm leaving your side. You know what I mean? So.

Renae: Yeah, I, I love that that highlight of the, the scripture. If when we look at the, the character of God, um, regardless of which facet of God it is, um, the word compassion shows up all throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament when speaking about the character of God and that the word compassion literally meaning to suffer with is that that embodiment of that promise of I'll never leave you or forsake you. And that, again, is written throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament talking about God's presence. And that when even I just remember reading one time, and I want to say it was in Isaiah, um, and I can't remember it because I'm really bad at the numbers, but I'm good at the, the meaning, but the, um, the, you know, not even your, your, your bones will never be broken. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a second. I am pretty darn sure that in fact, I have had a broken bone. But then I remember, you know, then I remembered and looked back at the, at the, the Hebrew. And it was it's like it won't stay broken. Like you, you're you're you won't stay in a state of, of always, um, feeling the same way that there is always a path to healing, whether we understand what that looks like or not and that the, the beauty of God's presence through it, um, is that in that, that witness and that God laments as well, like Jesus crying more than once in Scripture tells us that like the very person of God had lament, knowing full well what was going to happen on the other end. And so that that piece of, um, if we are, if we, that's the kind of hope that we can rest in and that we can live in. Um, then maybe we're not as afraid for other people to be in those spaces as well. So what, what are some ways that we can increase that experience for ourselves or for when we're in a either in a leadership position or not in a ministry setting. Um, where can we bear witness to that compassion?

Cerise: Go ahead. Aminah, we taking turns?

Aminah: I, I would say, um. I don't know, there, there are so many, so many good things that, that you brought up, but as far as, um, compassion and understanding that, um, long suffering doesn't mean suffering always. Right. Um, again, of course, looking at looking at the attributes of Christ, but then also as leadership, sort of reframing what it what it looks like to suffer and what it looks like to suffer with. Um, I think that when we look at compassion, we have to sort of redefine whether compassion. I think it goes straight back into the last question, right? Whether compassion is just sort of like, hey, I see you're having a hard time. I empathize with you. Right. Um, or is it I see that you are suffering. How can I bear burdens with you? Right. Um, and I, and I believe that it starts like you said, Renae, with leadership, right? Leadership in their approach to bearing one another's one another's burdens. Um, but I, I, I think that there is an intersectionality between trauma informed practice and burden bearing. Um, and also, um, I forgot the Hebrew word you said, um, but suffering, right? Suffering. We have a beautiful opportunity to continue to have this conversation and discover what trauma informed practice looks like, because trauma informed practice helps us understand what the nervous systems respond to, responds to suffering is. And then the work of faith helps us to understand how the soul is responding to suffering, right? And so if we can sit with that, align with that, allow ourselves to be informed by that, then trauma informed practices tell us to allow the space to be held, um, create room for, for justice to, to be established. Um. Mishpat. Right. Uh, to, to sit with those who are brokenhearted, the widows, the Orphans. Um, the poor, the needy. Right. Um, but but I think compassion takes embodiment. Embodiment of, of trauma informed practices. But again, it's, it's really God character practices. So that's what I would say.

Cerise: I agree with all of that. Um, for me, I think there's a lot of opportunity to show empathy and compassion and trauma informed care in, in houses of worship because people come there for healing and hope. Um, and people stay for continued healing and hope, right? So people are always going through something, right? So I think, like Aminah said, building those relationships, not always just looking for moments to correct someone or something on a particular issue. Building those relationships, you will start to hear or know or understand what people are going through, because people may not disclose at first if they don't feel safe, right? So they're not going to tell you what's going on. Um, so if you're not building relationships with, uh, visitors or just the congregation in general, you're not going to know what those opportunities are for you to show empathy, compassion, or trauma informed care because they're not going to say, um, for me, like my presentation for, um, for TraumaWise ministry is dealing with abuse. So I, I know if the leaders are talking negatively about abuse and saying how it's not right and it shouldn't be happening. And then, you know, that funnels down to the congregation. Congregants should be, you know, saying that also, but also, um, making it known that you care about people suffering and whether it's your messaging, whether it's, um, posters or flyers or programs you're having, you know, there's some churches that have grief groups. Um, but having programming that addresses people's everyday problems and concerns are opportunities to show compassion and provide trauma informed care. And just through that relationship building, you help people feel seen. I know everyone is busy. Life is busy. The economy sucks. Oh, the whole US is in a topsy turvy Situation. So there's a lot going on. And so it's very easy not to see people not to even notice changes in their behavior if we're not being intentional and looking. So there's yeah, there's so many opportunities to provide trauma informed care and empathy to show people that you care.

Aminah: I love what you just said. If I can just chime back in and he said, I love that because I mean, you're talking about establishing like regulating the church's relational environment, right? Establishing regulation in the church's nervous system. And I think that's so important. But a big piece of that is modeling, which is what you're saying, programming.

Cerise: Yeah.

Aminah: Making it known that relationships are important to you. leadership, making sure people know that this is what we stand for. This is who we are. This is, this is what we, um, what we'll stand for and what we'll fall for. Um, and, and that, and that goes hand in hand with regulating the churches, um, relational environment and cultivating, uh, a system that can bounce back when people are, you know, people come in hurt and pain. This is who we are. This is what we are. These are the programs that we have. How can we serve? How can we grow? How can we be in community with you? And, and so we're at a state of, um, of relational regulation. I remember is modeling is just so important. I was so happy that you said that. I remember I was, I was working as a trauma recovery coach, um, at a church in Cleveland. And there was, there was a, a person that came to another person and was expressing, you know, something they were going through talking about hard times they were having and they. They brought them over to me as the trauma person. They were like, hey, this person has trauma. You all figured it out, right? And so as a as a leader, as a, as a. As a torch bearer for this work, I had to stop both of these people and say, hey, wait. Paul. Wrong name. Not using the name. Um, they kind of expressed this to you first. They felt comfortable enough to express this to you, right? How about we stay and engage in community in this moment so that I can be here as a new person in this situation, and then you can also walk alongside them in this, in this as they're expressing. Again, so I just appreciated that you said that. So I wanted to just chime in.

Cerise: Well, I'm chiming back in off of what you just said because as you were saying, someone brought someone to you and sort of like wanted to do a handoff. I when you were talking about being, um, relational and in community, I also feel like sometimes we need to intercede on people's behalf when we notice things, those are opportunities to, to show trauma informed care. When you see someone handling a situation in a harmful way, saying something that could be harmful, I think we need to interject, um, whether, you know, find some politically correct way to do it where we are like, oh, hold on sister, hold on, brother, can I speak to you for a minute? Like we need to be protective of our fellow church members and congregation when we see things being said to them that again, maybe sincere, maybe truthful, maybe honest, maybe biblical, but not appropriate. At that moment. We I think we need to be protective and and and step in.

Renae: Well, I think that the, that, um, and I love the flow back and forth that you all are doing, um, in, in naming these things. And I'm hearing a little bit of a, a through line that reminds me that, um, I think part of the reason that we may, I'm just going to throw this out here that we may struggle with this in, um, communities of faith is, um, because just like Reese was talking about that busyness factor, um, that makes us fall into, um, a scarcity mindset that when we feel like I don't have enough time, I don't have enough knowledge, I don't have enough energy. I might say the wrong thing. I might do the wrong thing. I can't really take that on. I'm one mess up on my own, away from flying off the handle and having my own mental health, whatever. Like all of these different reasons that it becomes that we, that we move into the not my problem, uh, category. And we want, we were looking for someone else to hand it off to or we stop making eye contact or whatever it happens to be. And so when I look at that, I look at that as part of the depersonalization and disconnection of burnout, which tells me we're outside of the our resources, right? We, we don't have resources. And if in a, in a community, a healthy community, um, having that, that regular conversation of saying we, each of us is going to move in and out of capacity. Um, and so what we do as a community is that when we have capacity, we look up and we help. And when we we don't have capacity, we ask for help. The best that we can, right. And that we, we provide so much grace and space for that to say, I'm going to need help sometimes. And it does. It's whether I no matter what my role in the church is. Um, and so the, the fear basis of scarcity, uh, which I think unfortunately is part of when we talk about the, you know, people don't fall into the patterns of the world. Um, you know, that this is a place where we do end up falling into the patterns that, that say there's not enough. And ultimately, if I could, my sermon would say that just points to, we don't really believe that God is as good as God says he is, but that's a whole other thing. Um, but, but that's, but that's really the, like, how do what are some ways that you have seen it done? Well, where it's been, where there has been that ability to have the pause and say or have, you know, or have or maybe you haven't seen it done, and here's what you wish you could do. You know, just in case. But what where have you seen it done? Well, that, that space in that, that, um, that cultural shift has been, has been created to say, hold on, we have all the time in the world for those who are brokenhearted, um, that we don't need to rush.

Cerise: Oh, okay. I have seen it done well when churches have small groups, um, and I've seen it where it was small groups and, you know, each little pocket of group We were their own internal support system. They had gatherings and social events and Bible studies, and they were their own little support system. Um, not that they couldn't come to the church, but you know, you knew you had that small group that was your small group that you could talk to your problems, talk about your problems and, and get help. Um, so that's when I've seen it done well on a larger scale. Yes. You have individual people that I've seen individuals in churches that are those in tune, people that just notice when somebody isn't right and you know, they are going and seeing what and checking in with them, but like that's one or two persons in a whole church. And so I, yeah, on a bigger scale, I've seen it when churches have or promote and encourage small groups.

Aminah: I've seen. I've seen it done. Um, well, uh, there's always room to grow, but I've seen it done well, when, um, members of the church are equipped with language and with knowledge. Right. Um, and what I mean by that is, um, we worked at a church where we did a, we, we did a equipping session once a month called listen, learn and link. And what that was, was, was an opportunity for every person in every ministry, hospitality, children's church, whether that's, um, leadership, whether that's, um, peer support within the church. They were equipped with these skills to listen to people's problems, learn about how they can be in that space with them if they can, and then link them to appropriate resources. But one of the huge parts of that was knowing that trauma informed care. Um, and listen, listening, learning and linking is bidirectional, right? Um, you are not to lay your life down, um, and suffer. Um, trauma informed care doesn't require that. I think it requires you to understand, hey, let me check in with myself and see, do I have capacity to hold space for this person? Do I have capacity to, um, b b a b a a shoulder to cry on? Do I have capacity to introduce them to my friend who is a wraparound specialist, or a social worker or a lawyer or, or an activist or advocate? Right. Do I have internal capacity for that? Um, and then being able to say once I know where my capacity is, being able to engage further. Another piece of that was transparency. Transparency with people you're sharing, being transparent in saying, hey, I know you're sharing with me and I and I want to be here for you. I do because the majority of us do want to be there. But it's about capacity, right? But just today is just not my day. Can I introduce you to my friend Sarah? Can I introduce you to my friend Danielle? Um, and they can walk with you through this because today's just not my day. Right? Um, but back to that language piece. I don't think people don't want to support. I think they just in the moment when they're carrying too much, just don't know how and they don't want to harm. And so having the language to say, no, it's bidirectional. No, you need to hold space for yourself. No, we need to be able to integrate these things into practice. No. How about we do a warm handoff before things get too too hot, right. So I've seen it done really well when there's equipping us with language and knowledge.

Renae: Right. Because we don't have, um, you know, that, that, um, Francis of Assisi quote that's like preach the gospel daily and if necessary, use words. And my, my old Testament professor would jump up and down and say, that's ridiculous. You don't know the meaning if you don't have the words. And so you need both. You need both the experience. He was a little tiny British man. It was really funny to watch him do that. Like he was just like, it's ridiculous. Um, but, but you have like, we, we need experience and we need the language together in order for there to be meaning to be made. Right. So thinking about cultures, Like when we think about the the people in the north, the Inuit folks who can see all the different types of snow and we're like, we're convinced there's three types. And they're like, yeah, there's like forty plus because they actually have language that forms those neural pathways so they can see the different types of snow, right? And so that when we're talking about the people, that it's not that they don't necessarily want to see things, it's that they don't even have the language that would help make sense of it, to recognize it. And so creating those, those entry points to say it's, you know, it's not your fault that you don't know this. Here's, here's the things that I know and that, and maybe even providing those, those opportunities for people who are curious to say, you know, how can we help in ways that we are making sure we're not harming? Um, how can we, you know, even maybe there's a conversation called intent versus impact, and that we can have all the best intentions in the world, and still we can cause damage and, and we don't want to. And so what can we do? Um, and what, so I think that there's some things that are there, but I'd love to hear from both of you because what you've, you're naming to is creating this space sustainably to be the person who is burying, who is carrying, who is holding, who's creating that space. Um, means that you got to do your own work in order for not just one time, but all the time in order to continue to be able to show up and to be able to name your capacity. And so if you could share with everybody, um, what are some, what some wisdom that you have about what you do, your own personal practices that ensure that you have the, a better chance of accessing your resources internally.

Aminah: Which one? Which one? Okay. Um, I would say for myself, I do a lot of self check in, um, a lot of self check in almost to the point where it's like, okay, are we doing this again? And yes, we are doing this again. Uh, I walk myself through this sort of check in that I've created that's really quick, but it's three hours. It's realize how you feel physically because that's usually where stuff lives in your body. Um, recognize where you are mentally and emotionally and then reflect or resource, whatever. I need that at the time, whether I need to reflect or whether I need a resource, but just creates more space, um, for me to hold space and also helps me decide whether I have space. Um, but to be honest with you, I am constantly, um, constantly checking in because helpers need help. Uh, helpers need self resourcing. And um, I, I have tried my hardest to become a self specialist, um, and learn and learn what I need in different seasons. Um, what I needed to lean back from in different seasons. Um, but yeah, I would say that that reflection has been, um, pivotal in my, um, in my journey of doing this work. Um, those three hours are on constant replay in, in my mind. Um, because you're right, you're one hundred percent right when we, we cannot, um. We cannot give what we don't have. And we have to be able to be aware of where we are and reach some level of self stabilization. And the stabilization doesn't mean you have to be okay. I think it just means more of like awareness. Like, where am I at? Um, and so I can decide on this compass, where to, where to go and where I can be be of service. And sometimes being of service is just being quiet.

Renae: Beautiful , Cerise?

Cerise: Can you put your three R's in the chat? Realize reflect. I I'm lost on a path somewhere and I was trying to write it down. Um, so I agree with the self check in. So one of my practices is because I can have a thousand balls in the air at one time And it's usually okay for me because they're all things that I'm passionate about, right? But I have I do do a self check in when someone reaches out to me about doing something, and it's not as concise as the three R's, but part of it is, you know, I want to be in alignment with what my purpose is. So that's my, my first check in. Like, is this even in alignment? And then, you know, I go through the, the capacity part because I never want to overextend myself to the point where someone reaches out to me and I just have nothing to give because the space I operate in, I'm encouraging people to reach out to me. Right? I want to advocate for them. So for me to be overextended to the point that someone reaches out to me and I'm like, I have nothing. It it would be problem for me. So I have I along with the self check in, I um, I've become an avid practicer of no. And saying no. Um, because I think that has, has helped me the most because being in this space and doing the work that I do is stressful mentally, emotionally, being a nurse, it can be stressful physically, too long hours, crazy shifts. So I have to practice no, so that I am not overextended. Um, yeah. I mean, I do other crazy stuff like axe throwing and stuff like that. Like I like to be active, um, to get any pent up, um, things out there out of me. Like I'm not going to hold things in. I'm going to release it whether it's a walk or, you know, axe throwing or, you know, I, I do physical things to release, um, stress also. But yeah, that checking in and saying no, I think has been, um, my biggest, my biggest self-protective measures.

Renae: Yeah. Um, for me it is, um, I have my own daily check in and um, I have carved out and have declared to the world that I'm spending at least forty five minutes a day on myself before I do anything to do that check in. Right. And I am not getting up. Do not, do not misread that. I do not get up at five o'clock in the morning and get my quiet time. That is some. I'm not on a circadian rhythm, folks. I'm on my rhythm. So I get up when I'm going to do. When my body tells me it's time. Um, and, but it is, it is a break it down. It is my deep scripture work and then it is a alignment check heart, mind, body and soul. And it takes forty five minutes to go through the whole thing, if not an hour. Mhm. And I have to do that in order for me to know how I actually can show up in a day, because my body has changed, my mental health has changed my, my circumstances. Like the I can't my life is very unpredictable and I don't have enough consistency. And so this has to be the container in which the consistency is created. Um, to say, I'm going to come back to this and I'm going to, I'm going to listen to what is my heart telling me, what is my mind telling me? What is my body telling me? What is my soul telling me? And that, um, that we are, we are whole people and not fragmented people. When we're healthy, right? And so part of, I think, even from the beginning of this conversation is sometimes what I think happens in, in the, the body of, of Christ. And we're speaking specifically about, about people who follow Jesus is we'll get, we'll get into silos of specialty and say, well, this, this group does this and this group does this. And, you know, even even Aminah, the at the beginning is, is this clinical or is this faith, you know, and, and the thing is, we can't like, we can't separate this. There is actually no separation. There is there should be separation of church and state, but there is. But as far as we're talking about that, we can't separate our our faith from our whole person because God made us whole people. And the God embodied that human experience, Jesus was fully divine and fully human, which means heart, mind, body and soul as well. So therefore that we shouldn't separate either right? Or compartmentalize it. We we need all of it. And we've had some really wise folks in the, in the chat talking about, you know, the importance of making sure that we're there's integration, not disintegration. When we talk about disintegration, we might think about things like melting away. But what it looks like for us segmented, whether that's individually or collectively. So thank you so much for, um, sharing. I don't know your first name, but, um, uh, the counselor in the chat who was sharing about that. Thank you. Absolutely. Go ahead ladies. Go ahead. Tell if you had more to say. I was like, I think you might have more to say, but.

Cerise: Well, I'm reading the chat too. So yes. God ain't therapy, right? Right, right. Um, I have a pastor friend who sells a t shirt that says. What does it say? I have Jesus and a therapist, I think. So yes, we have to be, um, we can't separate those, um, being trauma informed. I mean, I said it the or was it Renae, that the Bible itself is trauma informed? Jesus. What someone say in the in the chat is a counselor. Like he calls himself the counselor like so I don't think our churches should be operating. In a non trauma informed way like we are, we are to do no harm. We are to do good. So the way to do that is receiving training on being trauma informed from the leadership down always from the leadership down. Right. So I like, I like what Aminah said about where she was that they had, she, they had the language, they had the understanding. And that is my current passion, trying to get in as many churches as possible to try to help them be more trauma informed because no one like I mean, I said, no one is out here intentionally trying to do harm. They think they're helping or they're wanting to help and it's just not coming across.

Aminah: Yeah. Um, I totally agree. Totally agree. Uh, I don't, I don't think it's intentional, but it's a lack of a lack of knowledge is a knowledge gap. And um, I think with the piece about. The gospel being trauma informed, um, and, and prayerfully getting to a place where the church embodies trauma informed principles and practices. So we're not like the trauma informed church and instead we're just the church and, and, and that it is, it is that right? There has to be some restoration. Um. Between practices and theology, like restoring some sort of integrity there because we say that we are, you know, Christian doing the gospel following, following Jesus Christ. But then in practice, there's a lack of integrity there. And it's not what it's not what many of us are doing. Right. And, um, and there has to be some restoration. Restoration there because then again, it won't be the trauma informed church, but every church on every corner and every city, state, country would truly be the church. And could we like, imagine, could we fathom what that would, what that would mean for people, um, who, where their first stop during pain is the church? Could we imagine what that would mean for, um, the third space right between home and work, this third space where there's community where people can access their own, um, sense of safety and healthy and nurturing community. Like we would be not in this crisis of, of trauma. Um, we would be in a, in an active, inactive throes of, of healing and restoration and resilience. So I can I can only imagine, I guess, operating in our scope of practice. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Renae: Right. And so there, there is, um, I think that when we talk about that people have been given, um, we're in our last couple of minutes here, so I will make this as short as I can, but that, um, we know that people, um, the God gives gifts to people and that they look different. Um, and, and how they are expressed is actually different too, because we all have individual personalities and senses of humor and ways that things are, um, are, are meant to be expressed because expression is of God like that creation, um, aspect of it. Right? And so the, the, um, ministry that all believers have been given though is the ministry of reconciliation, Right. That is, it doesn't matter what other gift you have been given, the ministry of reconciliation is your ministry. So if you're ever wondering what you're called to. There you go. Um, it is to love as he loves. Um, and how he loves is big. And how he loves is tender. And how he loves is fierce and protective and constant and faithful. And so I would say that, um, I'm going to ask these ladies in our last minute and a half, um, if there is one thing that you would encourage people to hold on to going forward from this conversation that would help them to, to sit with that amazing God that we just talked about, what would that be?

Cerise: Repeat the question. What we're telling some one.

Renae: People who are the people who are here, who are listening, whether it's on the podcast, the recording, or here live. What would be something that they could take away that would, would help them to, to recognize, see, spend time, be reminded of. This good.

Renae: Great God.

Renae: Is.

Cerise: Okay. Um. Well, I one thing we should all recognize is God was a God of love, care, concern, the creator of empathy. And what do we say? He's going to put on a t shirt, Renae. We are all in the ministry of empathy. If we claim to be Christians, that is what we are. I want everyone to walk away from this, knowing that God loves everyone. And if we are to be like him and show people his presence. We need to love all people and and de-center ourselves in conversation with people, de-center ourselves and practice the ministry of empathy.

Renae: Thank you. Theresa. Mina.

Aminah: Yes. Everything. Everything you just said. And also know that you are the gospel. You are the gospel. Which means by way of that, you are equipped to practice and engage in trauma informed care within your faith community. You don't have to be a clinician. You don't have to be the trauma informed specialist. You don't have to be the pastor. You don't have to be a ministry leader. You can be the person handing somebody a cup of coffee on a Sunday morning, and you can engage in a way that is trauma informed and, um, be a game changer and a wave maker in this path towards trauma informed care and interaction. Um, with your role just where you are, just how you are, just as you are.

Renae: Beautiful. And I would, I would say that probably one of the most dangerous and powerful prayers that I've ever prayed is God. Let me see them the way that you see them. And that will change everything. And so, um, with that, I want to thank both of you for being the very brave souls that said yes to our first TraumaWise ministry conversations different than the summits you have, um, really, given so much to this community and your presentations and what you both continue to share. And so I want to thank both of you for being here and for the people who, who signed in and stuck with us for the hour and those who are watching the replay and those listening on the podcast. Um, you, you are worthy of being seen, heard and valued. We want to affirm that for you. And we'll hold hope that that will be reflected to you, that God's love will be reflected to you in the face of your brother and sister. So thank you so much, ladies, for being here.

Aminah: Thank you for having us. Thank you for having me.

Cerise: Thank you for creating this space. And yes, you, you did a lot of behind the scenes work, Renae. So that does not go unnoticed. Thank you.

Aminah: Yes.

Renae: Thank you all. When we will see you all at the next conversation.