Repairing Sacred Spaces: A Ministry Summit Panel on Trauma, Grace, and Human Connection

Renae: Um, well, welcome, everybody to our speaker panel for the second TraumaWise Ministry Summit. And today's topic is about addressing barriers to implementation. And so our, our, um. Our agenda for this time is, is actually pretty simple. Um, we will begin with introductions and then we will, um, it'll be brief introductions. Name where you're calling from, what your role is, um, and then check in question to be decided in a moment. Um, and then the other question that we start with is, um, at what is the first, um, concern pushback. I don't know if we can do this, that you tend to hear from people When you're introducing a trauma informed or a TraumaWise practice into your space. What is that? There's a there might be either a first or the one that you hear the most often. Um, so you can be thinking about that as, as we're getting ready to introduce ourselves. So, um, let's see today's check in question. Um, is going to be, uh, food based. Okay. Um, so I want to prepare everyone for that. And it's one of my favorite questions. And I love the answers to it actually. And the question is, if you were an ice cream flavor, what flavor would you be and why? And I'm going to be listening for the and why. Because that part's the most fascinating. So, um, I'll, I'll just start to model. And my name is Renae. I'm the founder and CEO of, uh, TraumaWise, I'm calling from sunny Southern California. They cannot decide if it is warm or cold, so it is both at the same time. Um and we um um let's see the question for the, the food. What flavor? Ice cream. Um, I think right now, um it's probably going to be something along the lines of um. Oh no, I can't remember the name of it. Um, it, the Stephen Colbert one and I can't remember the name of it. But the thing is, it is, it has like a bunch of like a bunch of flavors in it. And it's like, it's like there's texture, there's flavor, it's the flavor of it changes from from one bite to the next because it's got so many different things in it. Um, and I think for me right now in life, that's kind of, um, who knows what you're going to get. Um, who knows what I'm going to get at any point. And so there's a lot of flavors going on. Somehow it comes together and it seems to work. So I'm going to I'm going to run with it. So that is that is mine. Um, we'll go in order of people who sign in. So, um, Emily, how about you next? Uh, I'm Emily and this is Regan, and we are.

Emily: Also in beautiful, sunny Southern California. Except it's pretty warm where I am. I'm not that much further south from you, but it's been a warm day here. Um, and I this is a really hard question for me as a lover of ice cream. Uh, I don't think I've ever met a flavor I didn't like. So. I recently had a flavor that, like, made me think of really like thoughtful flavors. And so that's what I'm going to go with today. And it was a Swiss chip orange chocolate ice cream. That was not what I walked into the ice cream shop to buy. And that's what I left with. It was really good. Like really dark chocolate. Like deep flavors and then a little citrusy orange for fun. So I guess that's, that's the best I have today. Or maybe that's just what I really want. Um.

Renae: Beautiful. Thank you. Uh, what shop are you. Sorry. What shop are you in? That you?

Emily: I was at a Cali cream in San Diego after the Padres game. They have over seventy flavors I found while I was there, which is really hard for an ice cream lover like myself.

Renae: I'm a big fan of salt and straw. I believe a salt and straw pretty much has the best ice cream I've ever had anywhere in the world. That's kind of my my jam. So I will have to try your place to see.

Emily: It was very good.

Renae: Awesome. All right, Wendy, you are next.

Wendy: All right. Hi, everybody. I'm Wendy McMahon. I'm calling in from Santa Ana, California, where it is very nice and sunny today. And I am the president at for the children. I also am a community pastor at my church, which is a volunteer role, but I always like to mention it in a ministry summit, especially because it just happened. I just became a pastor and I love it. Um, okay, so Renae, is the question, what's our favorite? Or if, if we had to be one, which one would we be? Or both?

Renae: If we had to be one, which would we be and why?

Wendy: Okay, so what you this is great. This is why we're friends. Renae. Um, when you said yours, I, my, what I already had in mind was basically the exact opposite of what you said. So you said like, you never really know what you're going to get right. And, and you might get this one time and this another time. I picked literally the opposite thing, which is. So I picked my, my mom's favorite ice cream, partly because I love my mom and I love making her happy. And I'm always happy to split a pint of ice cream with her. And her favorite is, um, a talenti. Uh, you know, the little expensive ones? Of course, it's their mocha chocolate chip, I think is what it's called. And she likes it because the chocolate chips are more like shaved and threw out. And I thought that I just want to be consistently pleasant and delightful. Not a lot of big surprises, right? Isn't that the exact opposite of what you said? Um, and then, you know, some coffee thrown in for just to keep everybody awake.

Renae: Beautiful, beautiful. Well, thank you Wendy. It's one of many reasons that we are friends. Complimentary. Um, I think Nicole signed in, um, next and so I'm going to go ahead and read hers. Um, Nicole is joining us from Fort Worth, Texas. She's a crisis interventionist for a local mental health agency responding to nine, eight, eight calls at the suicide line. And she wanted to say coffee because it refreshes her. The biggest. Oh, and she's going to share. I will save the biggest pushback for when we go into that question. Um, I'm a big fan of the the coffee ice cream. I'm also very sensitive to caffeine, so I can't eat coffee ice cream past three o'clock, which is a sad state of affairs for everyone involved. Um, all right, Reverend doctor, let's hear from you.

Xenia: Hey, so I love, love, love this question, but let me answer the first one first. I am Reverend Doctor Senior Bond. I am calling from Brooklyn, New York. It is actually such a beautiful sunny day today. So I'm really happy about that. Um, I wear many hats, Reverend. Uh, social behavioral scientist, author, speaker. Uh, but one that I'm most proud of is disability advocate. Um, and so if I had to be an ice cream. Oh, okay. I would definitely say coffee. Um, and that is because it is an acquired taste. It to some it may be bitter, to some it may be sweet. However, if you do indulge, it will definitely take you beyond your comfort zone and soothe the soul.

Renae: Beautiful. Lovely answer. Love it. I also love how much coffee, uh, flavors are happening here. Um, I might have a shirt or two that talk about how important coffee is to functioning. Um, so, um, and I actually love the flavor. Um, my husband thought for years, I, I, we have a Keurig, um, I'm a tester for Keurig, so I get free coffee makers, which is like to use so they can, because they can test what I drink. Um, so I get to try new stuff and um, I will get flavored coffees to try and he the whole time thought that they were sweetened. And so one day he's like, oh, that's not sweet. I'm like, no, I don't like sweetened coffee. He's like, what? And of course, my youngest chimes in, she's like, mom, only sociopaths drink their coffee black. I said, that's not true. It's not true.

Xenia: Oh, no. I drink my coffee black. No sugar.

Renae: I know under one hundred like sociopath. Yeah, I know. I know. I was like, no, we're just we, we like, we know what we like. Right. We know what we like. And so, um, well, thank you all for being here. And hopefully Courtney said she's trying to, to, um, log in so we'll keep our eyes peeled for her as well. Um, but let's go ahead and jump into that question. And since I have Nicole's answer, I will start with hers. The, the question being, um, the, the biggest or most common or the, you know, the first pushback that you get, um, when you're, you're sharing with people the concept of implementing a trauma informed trauma practice in your place and space. Um, what is that? And she said the biggest pushback she's gotten in, even in her organization, uh, when it comes to implementing trauma practices is viewing behavior from people as deliberate and ambivalent. Wait, sorry is deliberate and ambivalent to seeing as a trauma, trauma response or way to survive. I might be reading it incorrectly, and I apologize. I should probably clean my glasses, but it's. The viewing behavior from people is deliberate, as opposed to seeing it as a trauma response or a way to survive. Interestingly enough, Emily and I had that conversation earlier today. Um, yes. Thank you so much. I'm sorry for my, my, my eyes are getting older and my bifocals, you work half the time. Um, so that yeah, that piece of, uh, that mindset shift, um, that comes from the willful disobedience. Um, they're choosing the, the, the, they're purposely trying to blank, blank, blank, blank, blank versus this is a response from a brain that is trying to keep that person from harm or death. Um, and, and why, and I think part of it, um, that is challenging in a ministry space is that we may have a very, um, I think my opinion, my opinion, uh, we might have a, an immature or underdeveloped understanding of sin. Right. That we are, we are connecting disobedience to non-compliance. We're or we're, we're, or, um, or that, that there's, there's a, or even that it's disobedience versus that there is something else that's going on. Disobedience to me implies a bit of a choice. Um, and we know that reactions are not choices. They are automatic. So, um, I don't know, uh, what do we think about that? Everybody, how, how does that? Have you experienced the same thing? What does it bring up for you?

Xenia: Um, I would definitely say the same. Right. Um, and, and part of it is the way people grew up that unlearned, uh, unlearned practices and behaviors that they have to attend the practices that they have to unlearn. But then there's also the misconception of what grace is. Um, and people often look at behavior as a thing of it's directly connected directly to themselves. So whatever someone else does, they automatically take it personal and not recognizing that they're that's just their reaction to whatever is happening to them. And most people enter spaces from a trauma, uh, from a traumatic space, uh, whatever they have experienced, whatever their trauma was. That's the first thing that meets you when they're, um, when they're combated with something else with a situation. And so that's often how they respond from a defensive place or just from, uh, I'm being attacked, um, that I'm being attacked mindset, that survivor mindset like fight or flight, what do I, what do I do next? And so when you're working in these spaces and you're trying to shift the mindsets of others, there's a lot of resistance because they too are coming from that fighting from a traumatic space. So it's work that continuously needs to be done. But I often see the same. So yeah, that was my take on that.

Wendy: I think it's a it's a really important conversation because it, um, when we assume that all disobedience is sin, then we're then we are saying that it's willful rebellion against God. And, um, it, it does give you pause to think, okay, if how interesting it is that those. Then if that's the definition. Those who have more sin tend to be those who have more trauma. And, and why is that? And if we can get to the why of that, then we're going to be able to actually help to make change in that behavior rather than the remedy being that, um, that they just try harder. Right. Um, Renae, a question I would ask back to you then, like, I would love to hear more about the theology you've worked out of sin. And you know, therefore, when you talk about sin. Do you have a definition?

Renae: Um, yeah. My definition of sin is a little more community based and corporate. Um, if you, I, I tend to, I understand the old Testament version of the people of God have a responsibility to, to, to God and to each other. And that when our, our disconnection, our disintegration in that relationship is never, um, only one person. It, there is, there is a, there are other relational pieces that have, um, not taken seriously that we are so interconnected. So I, and I mean, I think if I look at, um, the, even the concept of Individual sin. Yeah, right. There is no one takes any action in a vacuum. There are all these other factors around it. And so it is the it is, it is what is my part for how I can, you know, am I is an individual continually seeking the truth of who God is and the truth of who God has put into community with me and, and, and listening for that. And, and I and I moving further into trust with God because I need that grace. I need that connection, I need that mercy and that, that, that modeling and that relationship of unconditional positive regard and love for the because I am a reflection of God, right? Because God is in me as he is in every single person, right? So am I Staying in my in my staying in a relationship posture with God. So that that's actually what's being reflected. And that's my responsibility. Because when I'm doing that, the other piece is it's, it's easier for me to ask for forgiveness. It's easier for me to see where, how I can reconcile. It's easier for me to, to, to hear other people reflect truth to me, even if there's been a narrative of lies which are also sin, which is where we get into the epigenetics or generationally or community. Like we, we talk about people group trauma. Most, most trauma is in relationship, right? So I, it's, it's super complex. It literally don't have enough time. And we had five hours, I think, but it's the, it's the, and I think we've had a conversation about this a little bit before of you and I about the like brokenness. I don't think brokenness is the right Word. I think misalignment is a better word for at least for how my brain works, is that if we're not, if we're not in alignment, it's not going to function well. Um, and, and so it's the. How we are we lining up together to function well. And if not, what are our hearts trying to get? What are our bodies trying to get? What are, you know, what are we trying to get? It's usually power control, whatever those things are trying to put ourselves in the place of God. Yeah. But again, it's not individual because it doesn't it doesn't happen in a vacuum. I mean, it could it could, it could. But I don't we're I don't know any circumstances in which it does.

Wendy: I knew you'd have it ready to go. Good job.

Xenia: And I, you know, I, I love that idea of use of, of replacing the broken with misalignment. And it's so important and necessary because when people tend to refer to as broken, you have those who interpret it as something that cannot be fixed or it can never be fixed, or they keep it in that they keep it in that bubble of if it's broken, either I have to fix you or or you can't be fixed. But the misalignment is that ability of you're coming from one point, I'm coming from another point. And now let's try to work together and fix this. Um, and whether that's connection, a spiritual connection, whether that's a faith connection or even a human connection, it still presents the opportunity for something to be worked on. It's not necessarily a matter of being fixed because you're broken, but it's more of something of being worked on. This is a work in progress. This is something that's baby steps. That's going to take some time to mend. It's going to take some time to navigate through. But the idea and the goal is that there is a chance that this can happen. And when people can tend to approach it as something or someone being broken, many people have that concept or that misconception that if it's broken, it'll never be fixed, or you'll never be or you'll never be quote unquote healed. Um, or if it's, if it's related to brokenness, then, um, and connected with sin that it's like, be damn you. Or, you know, because in my book or however, depending on, however, when I say I not mean, but in general, um, whatever my beliefs are, wherever my thought process or whatever my, where God was born rung up believing once, once you committed this sin or this act of sin, then you can never be forgiven for it. And forgiveness is such a huge part of what we do. Um, but it's also, uh, something that's often misguided because some people don't know how to forgive or understand what forgiveness looks like, sounds like and feel like. So when you think about forgiveness, that's a whole other set of like a whole nother day to do workshops on or panels on because forgiveness is not one dimensional, you know, um, you need to be able to forgive yourself. You need to be able to forgive others. And then you also need to be forgiven and forgiven for the things that you can't change and forgive the things that you can't change, you know? So I say all that to say that the, the misalignment to me, uh, is a better term than to use than broken.

Emily: I think that's really interesting too. Like, especially in the specific area of ministry is that a lot of the time, it's not necessarily even the people you're training that have that misalignment, it's other people on your leadership team, which is, I don't want to say ironic, but for until I come up with a better word, I'll use ironic for like, we, we're so focused in ministry on that restorative hope and how that plays into resiliency. But then sometimes our teams get hung up on that as it's implemented. When you're not talking about it specifically in terms of what you're preaching to people per se, what you preach about the restorative hope. But then it's really hard sometimes for those leadership roles to implement. Um, whether that's through systems of like trauma informed care or just logistical choices that they make. I think that's where sometimes we get teams that are hung up on things for sure. Um, and it just does come back to that forgiveness piece and that resiliency piece and not being broken and unfixable.

Renae: And I think that there's something important that you said in there in that, um, there's usually like the brokenness of a system is a disconnection misalignment, right? And so when we talk about brokenness, I one hundred percent, when we're talking about systems, does it mean it can't be repaired? But it means that it has to be intentionally repaired. And I see that in Scripture that like, if, if all believers are given the ministry of reconciliation, what is reconciliation? It is that question of, I love this from the restoration circles, the reconciliation circles that are done. It says what needs to happen in order for this to be right. And that, that that we ask that question of everyone in the circle of. And it comes down to I'm going to cry. What do I need in order to feel safe in this relationship? I mean, that's what it really comes down to. And, and so when we're thinking about like that, that create, what does it mean to create felt safety? Is someone else does not get to tell me what I need in order to feel safe in this relationship or in this space. I need to have a voice to say that, you know, this is what this is what I need. And, um, actually a situation this weekend, last week that was really hurt by something and that was, I knew was likely not intentional. But the message that I received was one of, in, in being invalidated, being invisible, being discarded and dismissed. And when I said, hey, I, I need to unsubscribe from messages that specifically ask for these things because of the circumstances I'm in. Here's how it's making me feel. Can you please make sure I don't get messages like this? And the response back, unfortunately, was. Sorry that was hard for you. It was not our intent. That didn't feel like there was any understanding or connection or space. And I had to make a choice of, am I going to move forward with compassion? And like, you know what? What am I going to do? AM I just am I disconnecting completely? AM I pulling away and being angry? I had to go through all of the things, and I stood about and stewed about it and, um, ended up directly contacting, um, the main person who had been in relationship with before and said, hey, we, this has made it very clear that we are out of sync and we have an opportunity to either repair or to stay distant and friendly, but we can't let this default. We need to do one or the other. And I'm, I'm at peace with whatever you're willing to do because I know I'm going to be okay. Um, because I'm, I'm doing my own forgiveness process in the midst of it. Um, but it's, it's up to you. So respond or don't, that's an answer too. And let me know what you would like because we can't just let things default. Um, again, that wasn't, and it wasn't met with the kind of response that I thought would have been, you know, um, great. From that, I, I felt so much more peace because I was saying. This is where this is not working. Like this is, this is feels very broken to me. And here's what I can offer in, in creating that space and trusting, um, that God's going to be the mediator in this. And I don't have, I'm not in charge of. Justice or, or anything like that. God is. Um, and I will trust because I know that this is the right thing, not because it's a checklist, but because I know that for peace in my heart. Um, and I think that to me, it was like such, this tangible moment because it was in this ministry space, it was in this, this place of, of, of relationship and people doing church things together. Church, global church. Um, and, and so it, it was the, am I going, am I running? Um, which, which if I had, okay, great. That would have been a choice. I would have been my, my fight flight or freeze and my flight would have caught, you know, checked in with me there and said, let's do it. Um, but the, the system piece of it is the, um, the, I think sometimes in relationship, the busyness of our lives, the busyness of the tasks, the idea of the, the mission, when the mission becomes God versus God. right? When when that part or when we're like, we need a theme for Christmas. I'm pretty sure we have one. Um, Jesus, Jesus. Like we don't, we're, we're complicating certain things. Um, and, and forgetting what's at the heart of it. And, and God is so gracious in saying, I'm here when you want to reconnect. I'm here when you want to reconnect. I'm still here and I'm still present when you want to reconnect. And how can we do that with each other? I just talked way more than I meant to. I'm going to.

Emily: It was all good, though. All really good.

Xenia: Right? Wasn't it? It was so good. Um, but you know, and listening to what you're saying, it really makes me, it brings me back to the thought and what we share and what we were talking about, how you have to start with self. It always goes, goes back to self. Um, especially when you're, when you're struggling, You going through things when you start with self, whether it's forgiveness, self-forgiveness, self-healing, whatever it is, that being stripped down, that stripped down to your rawness is when you get to find what works best for you. It's when you get to tap into like, you tap back into your faith and you're like, okay, God, you've been trying to tell me and I've been trying to do everything else, but I hear you now, I got it. Like, you know, it's that it brings you back to that. It brings you back to that peace and that space of okay, in order for me, I've been so busy trying to fix everyone else and everything else, whether it's in the church, whether it's at work, whether it's in personal relationships that I've forgotten about the most important person in the situation, I forgot about me. So what do I need? Like you said, what do I need to feel safe in this space, in this moment, in this relationship. Once I can identify what it is that I need, then I can articulate what it is that I need. And once I can articulate what I need, I'm now presenting to set boundaries to say, okay, whoever's not willing to meet those things, they don't need to be sharing the space with me because I don't want to be in this space of negativity, or I don't want to be in the space of discomfort because I'm doing the work so that I can feel good about me. And once you're able to do that, you begin to realize some relationships that you've been trying to hold on to for so long were met for that door to close. And it's like the signs probably were there. And as humans, you know what we do. Oh, that's not what they meant. You know, we, we, we, we often do that. Or maybe, maybe I'm taking it the wrong way. And it's no, you took it the way you took it. But until you do that work on self, is difficult for you to be able to see the signs that that God has put there for you, um, to see. And sometimes he has to strip you down back to that, uh, that incubator phase, that back to that, that baby phase where you're just like, okay, I'm turning this over to you because I'm not sure of how to handle this because clearly everything that I've been doing has not been working. So, so help me. I'm listening. And, and that's what I heard in your story. That's what I heard in what you just said. You had gotten to a space where you're like, you know what? This is not working. This is not working. And I need to make sure that I'm safe and I'm happy, uh, physically, mentally, spiritually and in all the things. And so you can either join me in this or, or not. And either way, it's okay, but I'm going to do what I need to do for me.

Renae: So go ahead, Emily.

Emily: I think just more as I look, I like that I can see Nicole's response because I think about it more. I'm a visual person. Um, and just as I look at it and reread it and think about it and thinking about how opinions of behavioral responses is a behavioral response, and I just really come back to, I have a t shirt from Renae that says all behavior is communication and how I really need seven of them. So I could wear one every day of the week. Um, because that's what it, it does come back to communication from the people we're training and working alongside. Um, whether or not they realize how they're communicating. Um, it's not just the kids we work with, it's not just the groups we're going out to work with or bringing in to work with. It's those around us as well.

Renae: Um, Wendy, how would you answer our question of, of what resistance or, uh, barriers.

Wendy: Yeah.

Wendy: You know, when when you ask.

Wendy: The question of what is the typical resistance barrier? Pushback when we share our trauma informed views.

Wendy: Um, I think.

Wendy: Of because most of the work that I do is with children and helping people to, to be trauma informed for caring for children. Um, sadly, a very typical response is, well, you're just going to let those kids walk all over you or that's very permissive or even I think what those kids really need is a good swat on the rear end. And, um. Unfortunately, our kids have had too many swats on the rear end in all the worst kind of ways. Um, and what they need is not, is, is not more aggression. They don't need somebody else telling them, um. All the things that are wrong with them in order to make it right. But, you know, I think in the, in that, in that response that I get from people, um, there's a need behind that behavior, right? They're communicating something with that behavior as well. And I think many times they're communicating, I, that they don't, that they don't feel safe, that they, um, that they experience something in their own childhood or maybe in the way that they've raised their own children that they felt really worked for them. And we are trying to, to either invalidate that and tell them they were wrong to do it, or we're trying to tell them that that's not good enough for somebody else, and we're trying to take away that behavior without replacing it with one that actually works. So, um, I do have a lot of empathy for that point of view because of, of those, um, those motivations, I think that people have, I, and, you know, as a foster parent and an adoptive parent, I heard those things as well. Maybe, maybe you just are being too permissive with your kids. And, you know, to be clear, I don't believe in being permissive. I believe in having excellent structure for children. But I don't believe that providing a high nurture environment for children invalidates structure. I think it supports structure. Uh, so that's, that's my position on, um, on the way we, we raise children and behave with people that when we increase nurture, we're supposed to increase structure along with it. That is when we need to increase structure. We would also increase nurture. So, um, I think that is the, the most typical response I get. And these things take time, you know, it's, it's never been in a single conversation that I convinced somebody of my point of view. Um, but when we give them opportunities to see tools at work, and when we give them the opportunity to learn and to learn the brain science that we're basing our point of view on it, it's amazing how Scripture will even open up to you to go, oh, this is all in Scripture. Oh, it's not that. The only scripture about discipline is spare the rod, spoil the child, right? There's much, much more in the way that God deals with us, the way he tells us to deal with children and the way that he himself responds to children.

Renae: Yeah, I, I really appreciate the, um, the lens of, um, there's something else that's being evoked. If a person is, um, saying, oh, we, we really need to hold on to our compliance based, um, structure that, that says that, you know, this is a, the way to behave or perform. Um, and it, it comes from like a lack of safety and trust. And, um, I think, you know, Nicole said here in the, in the chat, um, I'm, I'm going to read her quote and she said, one of my professors when I was in Bible college told me early on when I started this work that I have to love the people more than the idea I'm trying to change. Right. And I, there's, there's something in the piece of love. And I would say that this is also an area in which, um, um, maybe we have some, um, some air. It's maybe that's not a very well developed concept for a lot of us. And I think because, um, what you had mentioned, even when the, of the, um, when we're, we're teaching the words without the words without action or without experience don't mean the same thing. And I think that when we talk about love, we're very quick to throw the word love around and assume an experience for people. And, um, I please forgive me, but I remember having this conversation with, um, one of your camp directors about ten years ago, um, saying you gotta stop telling these kids at camp that you love them when they don't know you Because that that's it's suspicious. It feels very weird. It's like if you haven't developed a relationship with them and you're like, I love you. We love you. It it you don't know what that means to them. You don't know what the precursor of that where, what, where there was abuse that was happening while someone was telling you that they loved you, whether somebody was using love as a game for gaslighting, um, whether it was all, you know, words, but not presence, um, you like that's a, it's a tricky word. And then if you have people who are trying to build attachment and you've been slowly building that and you come in with these big feelings, and this word of love and love is equal to gifts and cake and candy and these things, you are cheapening this, this concept of love that has not had enough experience behind it yet. Right? So I might have said that rather, you know, not not without a whole lot of nuance because I had a big feeling about it. Um, it's, it's, it's very nuanced, but I, I can now say it in, it's because of my own awareness of not having experienced love from people in a big chunk of my life where the words were spoken, but the actions did not line up. There was an integrity issue when it came to that. Um, and then it's, it's harder for me if I tell somebody I love them. It's risky every time. It's purposeful, it's never throw away. Um, and I can't say it unless I mean it right. There's this poor child that's in this house with us that I'm staying in and he's like, I love you, Renae. And every time I'm like, you're so lovable because I can't quite get there, right? Because I'm not, I'm not ready to say that in that relationship. And I think this when it comes to trust, you know, the, the, the I can trust God's love. I can trust God's abundance. I can trust that God's going to. The the God is bigger than my need to control. That comes with that. Like I need to experience that. I need experience that some levels of felt safety. I need to experience a level of that co-regulation that connection, that containment, that high nurturance structure in relationship with other people in order for me to begin to trust it more. And then I'm not, maybe I'm not going to have the same knee jerk reactions to, to having to control when people say there might be another way, there might be another way to look at this, or there might be a way to trust that God a little more in this. There might be a way to move forward in that. So all right, there's my I talk too much. I'm eating.

Xenia: No, you know, I'm thinking, listening to what you're saying and thinking about, um, pretty much what I said about how people enter situations or, or they approach different experiences, but from a trauma informed, um, aspect of things. Uh, what you're saying speaks to that, right? Because your connection and, um, with love and even hearing someone say that is because of what you've experienced in your life. And so there is that distrust and I in, in the need to build trust in order to, for it to make sense for you to even be in a space and say, okay, I love you or, or accept when someone says it to you because of your past experiences. Um, those past things are connected to when you first hear love, it triggers something differently, you know, from for children, it's the second nature. They just like, I love you to everyone because they're children, they're innocent. And they have they haven't had that. They haven't had what most many children haven't had. Um, the experience or the interactions that adults have had as of yet to build that disconnect to where it's like, I don't trust what you're saying to me based on your actions or I don't trust in or on that. And so I say that to say as, as we navigate through our lives and as we grow up, there's going to be times where you have to learn what love looks like, learn how love feels like to you in order for you to be able to articulate to someone. Um, but then also to have the tools to be able to shape and mold those who are around you and those who are coming up under you to have their idea, their experience, and their and their thought process of what love is. Um, and then meeting this common ground because everyone has a different experience every, like some people can come like I'm a person that I always say like, I'm coming from a place of love because that's what I know. That's, and that's, that's what I grew up. And that's what I know in my experiences of, of, with love. And so when I speak about love, I speak about the warmth, I speak about the joy I think of, I speak about that feeling of safety, you know, and it's important to communicate that when you're having that discourse or you're saying to a group of people like, I'm sharing in love with you and not just Blanketly say it like, hey guys, I love everybody in here because like, understand so that they can understand where you're coming from. So it's so it doesn't come across as creepy because it could, like you said, it could come across to someone as creepy. And you're like, I don't know this lady why she's in this, this lady's talking about how she loves everyone in here. And, and I only joined this Zoom because my friend told me to join, and now this lady is telling me she loves. But it's important to be able to, as a as a leader and as someone of mystery and as someone who's connecting and intentionally connecting with others. It's important that you set that safety and that that those boundaries and those expectations of this is what it is, and this is what you can expect when you come into this space. But then it's also important to actually deliver on that. It's important to actually, um, mean what you say and walk what you're talking. Um, you can't, you can't, you can't say that you're coming from a place of love, but everything else that comes out of your mouth is judgmental or everything else that comes out your mouth is dismissive, or everything else that comes out of your mouth is like, um, you're coming from this place of anger or this place of shame or disconnect, because then that's when your actions are not, uh, are not matching what you're talking. And that creates this, this tension with people like, I can't trust what this person says, or I don't feel safe in this space because they said this thing, but then I'm looking at them do, do something differently. Um, and as, as leaders, it's important that we do that work. It's important that we do that work, but it's also important that those that are leading around us, uh, do that, do that work as well also. And for us to hold them accountable to doing that and calling them in and not calling them out and saying like, hey, you did this thing. Let's talk about it. You need to do it in front of everybody. But, but I want to talk to you about this because you may not have noticed that this happened, but I want to bring to your attention so you're more aware about it, uh, and you're more conscious. And then you can, you can maneuver things differently because we don't want people to come into this space, especially after you created such a safe space or attempted to create a safe space and then have bring somebody on and they disrupt that entire thing.

Wendy: I, I like that that concept of calling them in rather than calling them out. I hadn't heard it put that way before. That's really good. I'm gonna have to bow out. I'm headed to another meeting. Thank you, everybody for the great conversation.

Renae: Thank you so much, Wendy. And we we are going to, um, we're so grateful to have you here and we'll see you. Um, we are um, pretty close to the end of time, so I am going to ask, um, um, you know, we've had this really rich conversation. Um, I love, you know, this is on day two, which is connection. So everything we've talked about is about connection today and connection to, um, to our ourselves, connection to God and connection to others and that awareness of, um, what, what things do I need to do? So I'm in alignment or I can receive the goodness of God and have that reflect out to other people in relationship. Um, and what do I need to do to, um, hold that, that light, um, what container do I need to create in order to be able to hold that hope and that love? Um, and that container may change. I think that's one part of it, the flexibility piece of, um, saying there are days I'm going to have more capacity than others and building systems where we have that compassion, that it's understanding that the, the flexibility to say, um, I'm, I have partnered with enough people in this space that if I know I don't have the capacity today, um, I don't have to respond in a fear or fight or flee response. Um, I, I can, I can actually turn to someone and say, I don't have capacity today. I need help and it's okay. It's, there's, there's not, I'm not broken. There's nothing wrong with me. It's actually me being part of a healthy system to say I need help. And so I would say for me that that's probably one of the, um, the pieces. It's hardest because like Wendy said, it's long term, it's system. It requires relationship, it requires depth, it requires time. Um, it requires grace, um, all of those types of things. But we want to create those, those, um, environments together, you know, in our, in our spaces. So, um, I would like to invite each of you to, with one parting thought for, for today. Um, and Nicole, if you wanted to put anything in the chat, I'm happy to, uh, share that with everybody and read it, but, um, Emily, um, you want to share kind of.

Emily: Well, Sandy was talking, I was just really thinking about, um, first Corinthians thirteen kind of like popped into my head and I like, love is patient. Love is kind, but love is not overbearing. Love is not forced. Love is not an expectation or anything like that. And that's really what, um, I think is a big shift. Sometimes we have to think about in ministry when we have people that are either all in or have a lot of barriers that they put up both ends of that kind of fall into the same category, um, of really bringing that grace back in from both sides and, um, learning and growing to be resilient and to teach resiliency at the same time. Uh, I think those are kind of big, big pieces. That's what I, I really have taken away from our conversation today. Beautiful.

Renae: Thank you. Emily. Cynthia.

Xenia: Um, thanks. I would just add to that. Don't be afraid to go back to the basics. Um, often we forget in the midst or in the middle of things. We, we, we forget that it's okay. It's okay to, to start over. Um, it's okay to separate yourself from a situation so that you can process all the things that you need to feel, um, so that you can understand exactly, um, how you feel about things. You don't always have to answer in the moment. Um, and so that's one of the biggest takeaways. Understanding what you need. So sometimes what you need is to go back to the basics and understand how, what makes sense to you, for you to feel safe in spaces and with, and for you to navigate through different types of relationships. So again, I say don't be afraid to go back to the basics. Thanks.

Renae: Well, thank you so much. Um, and I want to thank you. Uh, Nicole said first Corinthians thirteen also came up for her. The first part, part of it. If I speak in the tongues of men or angels, but do not have love, I am only resounding, resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. Um, she says it's been easy to get caught up in the political landscape of things lately, but love and how we treat people should be the focus, right? God says I'm precious. That means I'm precious and so is everyone else. So, um, Let us let us live into that, that, um, identity of, of who we are and in Christ and, and who God has made us to be. And, um, remembering that we all carry the image of God, each one of us, um, as we go through life. And the only difference between us and that amazing baby sitting there in front of Emily is time. We are all worthy of unconditional, positive regard. And so thank you so much everybody for, um, your, your time and for sharing. Um, it, these are, these are rich and important conversations. Um, and um, I am, I am filled and, and glad um, that we got to do.

Emily: Everyone.

Xenia: Awesome. Talk to you later.

Emily: Good bye.