Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Hands: Compassionate IEP Advocacy (with Karen Yingling)

Renae: Well, welcome, Karen, to our first ever TraumaWise education summit. I am so glad that you are here. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Well, I've I've known you for over a decade now. Um, and we have traveled together in many different ways. Um, so I know what you bring to the table, but people who are meeting you for the first time don't fudge love for you to introduce yourself to them. Sure, sure. Well, um.

Karen: So I am a mom of seven children. My oldest currently is thirty five and my youngest is nine. So I have been parenting longer than I haven't been parenting in my adult life. Um, all of my children have trauma histories in one form or another, and several of my children have pretty severe developmental delays on top of their trauma. Um, so I actually began advocating in my advocacy career in education. Um, gosh, fifteen years ago when my now nineteen year old was four and it was very rocky at the beginning, it I, you know, I had been, I had been a special ed mom for all of a year and a half before I was in a due process hearing, which was a horrific experience. Um, and so I developed this, this sort of, uh, IEP expertise at the intersection of trauma and education. And again, I have kids in all varieties of settings. I have had kids in public school and kids in private school. I have homeschooled kids, um, really depending upon what each child needed. So that's, that's my background in sort of how I got to this chair today. I also professionally have a background in facilitation and mediation. Um, so I've been able to find the perfect space for marrying of all those skills.

Renae: Excellent. And, uh, when I asked you about coming in, participating with us at the education summit, uh, the the question of how how does it educational advocate fit into this? Wouldn't that be more of a parenting summit conversation? And while it would, um, the things, the, the conversations that you and I have had about what makes a successful IEP team, where we're looking for what's best for the student really requires collaboration. And so I'd love for you to speak to us a little bit of, um, from the advocates point of view, what is it that you are looking for in the team? What kind of characteristics in team members? Um, and, and this one specifically for the education administration side of things, when you've had somebody come in the room and you knew that you were speaking the same language, that there was an understanding of what was what was happening. Could you describe what that kind of looks like?

Karen: Absolutely. And I can find I can do both sides. I tell parents all the time I'm very skilled at identifying needs, figuring out goal areas, writing great goals, making the services fit. But if I have educators and administrators who, who aren't interested, um, who aren't student centered, who aren't empathetic, who aren't compassionate towards a student, and they're especially with the intersection of trauma and education. Me um, we're not going to be able to fix it. Let's just go find another school because they're going to spend, you know, um, conversely, when I have a team that is compassionate and empathetic, when they see a student for the whole child, when they understand that, gosh, that child who is holding themselves together perfectly in school from eight in the morning till three in the afternoon. And mom is like, you know, racing to the car with them before they fall apart so that that doesn't happen in the public environment. Raise your hand if you were that parent and have that child. Um, when I have a team that recognizes that when listens to the parents, when really sees the impact of, of how especially early development, um, and the, the disruption of sort of that, um, appropriate and, and typical attachment development happens when that gets disrupted, how that impacts that child in fourth grade and in twelfth grade. Um, it can be really beautiful. The other piece that I've had a couple situations where we've gone into an IEP meeting and we've talked about trauma and I will never forget one, it was the little girl. She was in second grade and we had a rough first grade year. Rough, rough, rough first grade year because we had a T, we had what I'll call the first kind of T, and in second grade we had the second kind of teen and her teacher. At one point I looked, you know, we're on a Zoom and her teacher was just crying. And I sort of I paused and I said, you know, teacher, are you okay? And she looked up and she goes, in talking about this. I'm, I'm, I am her. When I was in second grade with all of her trauma. And it was one of those moments when as a professional, what you do transcends what you're doing in the moment. Um, and she really allowed herself to be present in that meeting to come into it with, you know, sort of open hands. And she got herself some healing, which was really awesome to see. Um, but very different than the first grade team where, are. You know, it's a defiance issue. She's not she's not taking that pencil and stabbing herself for any other reason than attention. Yes.

Renae: Yes.

Karen: Yes. Um, and I will tell teams when they say that to me, my favorite line is if a student needs attention, maybe we should figure out a way to meet the need in order to then be able to educate them. And, um, you know, it's one of my favorite things. I'm like, yeah, tell me a kid needs attention.

Renae: Well, my mom, I always say, well, then give it to them. Give it to them that hard. It doesn't need to be that much.

Karen: And that's, that's the other reason though, when I say that I'm like, and I'm not saying stop what you're doing for an hour and sit with them. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying walk over and put your hand on your shoulder and say, I'll be right with you. Or I see, we need to talk. Give me a minute. Something to see them and give them that attention.

Renae: Absolutely. What. And they in in all of the different developmental stages, the child's going through an educational system that the need for felt safety is the same. The need for belonging will change as to who they want to belong to and with. And in the younger ages, it's going to be the in-charge adult in the room. They're going to want to feel like that. They're very seen, heard and valued by that adult. And that becomes more focused on peers. But felt safety piece stays the same. And so, um, when you're, when you're working on teams in helping people to understand the concept of our brains are not going to be able to access any of the information or retain information, any of the information or process any of the information that's being shared by the instructor. If we don't have safety, what are some of the ways that that you have been able to communicate that that there's been an aha moment. And have you had an educator communicate to you in a way that you're like, oh, that's a great way for me to share that?

Karen: Absolutely. I think that, you know, we, I talk about the Maslow's hierarchy of, of, of brain access all the time. And, and I, I will often when I'm talking about trauma, say, but that bottom one are they, are they physically safe? Are we physically okay? Do we have food, water, shelter? I mean, those if those aren't met, those take over our brain. Where's my next meal coming from? And I can point to our educational system. Sort of has figured that out in the free breakfast and the free lunch. Um, you know, I, I'm fortunate my kids go to school in California. My practice is in California where every child gets breakfast and every child gets what they want. I mean, it's not we're not talking gourmet, but it it it satisfies their nutritional need. And we recognized early on that that's important for them. Um, water bottles. One of my easiest accommodations to put in an IEP is let the child have their water bottle on their desk, let them see it on their desk. Well, it's in their backpack. Let them see it on their desk because it just triggers their brain that I have nutrition, I have food, I have water. Um, and it's a, it's a, it's just a visual signal. Um, so I think that talking about where we are in the hierarchy is really important. Uh, a lot of my children, even who are on my caseload, who are autistic, who don't necessarily have what you and I might consider typical trauma, either developmental trauma or medical trauma, which are typically the things that we see most. Um, but even my kids with autism, who they don't express connection in the same way because of their social language and pragmatic language differences, they have a very high need for that connection, which is the second tier of Maslow's triangle. So if I don't, if if I have a teacher who is not connecting with my autistic student, I'm never getting up to the next step up to the next level. And, um, I would, I would assert that both my students with a trauma history and conflict, what I call complex developmental trauma in their background. And my autistic children are extraordinarily attuned to that connection and that safe people. Um, more I, if a, if a student tells their mom a teacher doesn't like me and they, and they fall into one of those two categories, I believe them now, my children with less trauma who live in my house when they come home and tell me their teacher is so mean and doesn't like them, I'm a little more skeptical that that that you know, But but my other, my other groups of kids, um, they're very attuned to it because it's a survival instinct. They need to know who their safe people are. Um, so very often in an IEP meeting, I will ask the team. So tell me who this student perceives. Who are the who are their safe people? And if it's a great way for me to, um, ascertain where the team is from a connection and safety standpoint, because if they don't know what I'm talking about there, we're going back to very much square one about that child's need for safety. If they say this person, this person and this person. Okay, great. Now let's build people and let's build those connections into this student's plan.

Renae: Yeah. And I think the, the, that question of who is that student who that student safe people, um, in even having it be not person, but people talk things to that it, it is a team, it is collaboration. And so we're not asking in any of these situations. We're speaking to educators for them to be the besties of thirty two children in front of them. Um, it is a ha ha. Who in the village of the school system, where are the supports? And it can be, it will be different people for different students. And um, when you have seen that, um, you know, you're talking about needing to go back to just even the understanding of safety. Um, in, in the school system, sometimes we, um, when we're talking about leadership, um, in any organization, if there is not a, a level of felt safety in the organization for the employees, it's going to be really hard for them to translate that to whomever that they are serving. And, and so in, in those circumstances, when when you can set that, the educator would really like to be able to do what is best for students. Mhm. But there seems to be some barriers. What are some creative ways that teams have come up with solutions together or collaborated or ways that that you have seen or even from other advocates any situation to build that safety?

Karen: I think that's a great question because I'm a firm believer that most of my front line people who are working with my kids, my teachers, my aides, my paraprofessionals, um, the related service providers, um, who are in the classroom with our students. Twenty four seven what to do the right thing for our students is very often the, the next layer or the next two layers out. Um, the principal, the school psychologist, and that sort of next layer who are caught between the student and the teacher, the, you know, the teachers and or the students and district. And then the file, the layer out, which is district, which has very different priorities. Um, that, that helping to give the teachers small tools they can implement easily. So, um, you know, we had a student and he was having trouble asking for help and the way he would ask for help is he would just have huge behaviors. And, you know, the teacher was, we had been, this is a kiddo who really kind of needed an aid, but he wasn't going to get one. That district, we were in litigation on the aid and we needed some solutions right now. And so what the parent did was we came up, we bought a little construction cones. They were like two or three inches high, the little orange ones. And we bought enough for all the kids in the, in the classroom. And the teacher gave one to every student in the classroom and said, if you need me, put that on your desk. And because this was a very high functioning child with autism who did not want to be singled out, who saw that, but when he saw his classmates doing it, we were able to leverage the role modeling. Um, we provided it, you know, there were, I think there were like twenty five cents on Amazon. So it wasn't a lot of money. Um, but we came up with, and then the teacher tried it and it did not eliminate the behavior altogether. It did not, but it started to normalize. And I think from the teachers perspective, what she felt like was, oh, there will they, you know, they see me. I think it's really important because we all want to be seen. So one of the biggest frustrations my parents have is when we will sit in an IEP meeting and they talk about their concern and they talk about what this child like coming home, or they talk about their fears or they or they. This is what's happening. And the team looks at them and says, well, we don't see that. So it's not a problem. And they move on. Um, because the parent doesn't feel seen. It's and the team can say, wow, that's got to be really, really challenging at home. We're not seeing it at school. But since he's coming from school to home, we might be impacting it. So let's talk about what some of the things we can do to, to address that. Um, and it's the inverse as well. Um, kids who are struggling for whatever reason in school or have a set of behaviors at school, when the parent says, I don't see that teacher, it must be you and the way you're impacting interacting with him. What I will try to do is back up and say, okay, let's talk more about what's happening. Help me understand better when that behavior gets exhibited, because we're mostly talking about behaviors here. We're not talking about the child with dyslexia who is perfectly well behaved. That's a whole different conversation because everybody can see that we can test for that. It's we know, you know, that's much more of a formula. We're really talking about the kid that's spending a lot of time and emotional dysregulation in the classroom, which is very disruptive. Um, you know, when that's happening. Okay, teacher, let's talk about what that what's what is that looking like in the classroom? When are we seeing this? Are there certain kids around? Uh, is it after a certain subject? Is it after we come in from recess? Is it, you know, breaking down that help me understand what's happening? Because when you help me understand what's happening, I can help, you know, come up with some ideas that we as a team can implement. Um, and, and that, so I think that's really important to have that two way communication, that two way empathy. Um, and to be honest, it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better right now. Um, you know, there's, and there's a lot of fear right now for everyone. Parents are afraid they're going to lose services. Teachers are afraid. Teachers know they're going to lose support. So how do we work together? It's going to be really important. The districts that come through the next year well are going to be districts, especially in special education, where they learn to do things a little more creatively. You know, are we learning to solve problems a little more creatively?

Renae: Yeah. Well, and, and with the, with the UN, I think that piece that you, uh, really teased out there about that needing to be seen, heard and valued across the board that everyone's experience of what is happening is multi-layered. It's impacted by systems and it's complex. And so this is why it is not a, um, s p a standardized educational plan. It is an individualized education plan because all the different parts of the system have needs and stakes in this, and it's supposed to be a plan for the student, but it's really the plan for the system supporting the student. Right. And so that, that the, what I'm working in, um, in with workplace teams and with organization teams, I spend a lot of time talking about if we don't trust each other as humans, we're not going to have quality work, not, not sustainably. And so there is a piece of this. And that is about seeing the human in the humans around the table and, and agreeing on what our goals are and acknowledging the things that feel impossible. And so when I'm speaking with educators, any educators that are listening to this or watching this, I just want to be very clear. You do not have enough classroom support, period. I don't care what structure you are in right now, you need more adults and less students in the classroom. Period. Period.

Karen: And the younger and the younger your students are, the more support you need. I, um, I work with a behavior intervention specialist who's my favorite person in the world. Um, in one of my favorite people. For the rest of you who are listening out there, um, but he, because he, he has said, and he has advocated for, um, every kinder first and second grade classroom needs a classroom aide, at least one. There's, there's. And, and he also, when he writes a behavior intervention plan, it is written for the adults and the grownups to, to, to give them the tools, them, the, um, processes them, the systems to help the student. It's unfair of us as adults to ask a six year old to make big life changes. Yeah. These are people that like, half the time can't make it to the bathroom on their own. Right. Right. They're still having accidents at night. Right. So we're and we're asking them to make a good choice. We're literally asking them to do something that's impossible. Yeah. Um, and so we have to support the adults, you know, and I will often ask teams teachers, what do you need? What in your classroom? What do you need to help this student? Yeah. Um, and now never ask a question you don't know the answer to already. Um, so there is that. But what do you need? And I have a lot of teachers who will say I need more training. I never had a gen ed teacher. I don't know, I don't know how to do this in my classroom. It's not there is no when you get your teacher credential, you don't go to a class on how to manage autistic behaviors in your classroom. You don't do it. It's not in your curriculum. So why are we asking teachers to do that without asking that? Right.

Renae: Well, it's it's the same unfair as asking the six year old to make good choices in that. Right? We're setting people up for failure and then blaming for it.

Karen: I know adults who still aren't making good choices, so why am I asking a six year old with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder? Um, who runs one thousand percent on impulse, right. And doesn't process anything? Auditorily. Why am I asking to make good choices? I, you know, the definition of.

Renae: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and, and it, it does this other piece too of othering. Um, and I think that that's an important thing for us to talk about when, when you have that example of the, the construction cones in normalizing that it is okay to ask for help because that is not everybody's A family of origin culture, um, and generationally has not been part of different, um, age groups for culture where, you know, asking for help is a weakness. This idea that you're supposed to be independent, which, which both of those things are lies just like flat out lies. I will, I will that there, there are some things I will take a stand on and independence is one of them. It is such a terrible characteristic of American culture, this idea that we're supposed to think that we act in independently of each other, we are so incredibly connected. We're just so incredibly connected and interconnected, and we impact each other all day long. And so this idea that we don't it the only way to do that is to turn off your humanity. And then we have a bunch of sociopaths running around, which is not I mean, we've already seen the effects of some of that. Dot dot dot. Thought so.

Karen: Running around.

Renae: So the the the the piece of normalizing that it's okay to be human, that it's okay to make mistakes. And we create ways for repair, that we create empathy points for compassion for ourselves and then for others. But we're saying, all right, clearly there is something behind this. Clearly there is something behind this, this, this behavior. Um, and I will say that all behavior is communication. I made a t shirt years ago that people still wear. There's like, there's nothing happening. That behavior that's not communicating some unmet need. Because if they could say it, they would.

Karen: Right.

Renae: So the, the piece of normalizing that, um, behaviors are a tool for communication, not something to be managed. I think it becomes even more poignant post pandemic as we know that with that, that, that collective trauma, um, effects of that and the other things that have fallen out from the, the, what I call the great pause when we were put into time out and had more time to spend paying attention to things. Um, those, those are, we're going to feel the ripple effects of that for a long time. And I, I've not spoken to a single educator since twenty twenty that has not said, man, it's gotten really hard. Like every kid seems to be traumatized. At which point I say, well, actually.

Karen: Yes, they are. You have now twenty children or thirty children in your kindergarten class who were born in twenty twenty. Mhm. They came into a shutdown world. Mhm. They came into a world full of fear. And we hadn't fully come out of that. And we know what fear does to our nervous system. And that so so again, bringing that collective calm. Um, I, I have a friend of mine. She's an educator. Um, when I went to high school with and we reconnected recently. And she's an educator in new Jersey. She teaches fourth grade. She is a proficient knitter. And she has taught her students to finger knit. And they do it in their classroom. When they need to kind of collectively settle their systems. And I was like, I love you so much. That's amazing. Mhm. Um, because it is that collective pause of and normalizing it. Not all, not all kids need that. Not all kids need that break when they come in from recess because they're regulated, their systems start off regulated. They stay regulated? But how lovely for the ones that need it. Mhm. And it's very hard as an educator to do that, because you've got your principal knocking on the door saying, why aren't you doing math? Where's the social studies lesson? Right. And they're just implementing some social emotional learning into their classroom. Um, that their students need. And, uh, I just loved when she told me that story, um, because I thought that's we need more of that practice the pause collectively. Mhm. Um, because that it does normalize it for the kids that do need it, um, for kids that need it and don't get it at nine in the morning or even one o'clock in the afternoon, looks like for them. Mhm. Mhm. And these teachers have twenty five kids, thirty kids walking into their classroom every day with an experience that happened from when they left either yesterday or Friday at three to now that for all kids is not, you know, rainbows and unicorns and teachers don't know it. Um, Orange County has a program now where first responders, when they respond to some to an event, whether it's police, fire or ambulance, if there's a school age child involved, they can alert the district. And that alert goes to the principal. They find the student, the district finds the student is. So if nine o'clock at night and there's a car accident, when that teacher goes into her classroom before school starts, her principal will have been notified and she will have been notified that her student is coming in and had an event. The details are not shared because that's private information. But she will know that that child was involved in a first responder call the night before. What a powerful tool for teachers, right? You have a student and they come in and they're swinging off the vines, right? They're out of their mind and they're like, especially if you've created a safe space for them, especially if they've had to hold it in since nine o'clock last night. And you are connected to that child as a teacher. They come in, they fall apart. And you know why? And you can be that landing pad and you can say, you know what? Why don't you come up and sit next to me today, you know? Or, um, you can do whatever you know, is going to help regulate the student and make them feel safe. I just, I thought that was such a fantastic tool. I will also tell you that our largest district in our county is choosing not to use it. And what that tells me is a really great messaging about what administration feels about the impact of trauma on kids. Yeah. And the tools that they're willing to give their teachers. Um, very interesting that the first districts to sign up for it, the ones who are like, we don't need that. Okay. You, Mr. Superintendent, that little kid cake? Doesn't a teacher definitely do.

Renae: Um, and I, and I know I was actually, uh, in discussions with that program as it was rolling out, um, on the, the team, the oversight team for trauma informed care in Orange County and the, um, the districts that, that said, yes. First are also the districts that have wellness rooms for their students to get support throughout the day. And so there's already a predisposition for saying there is a whole child here. This is not just a machine that we're trying to input a bunch of information into, so they can go out and become productive members of society to produce something. But, but we actually care about the quality of life for this child. And we know that that will impact sustainable, you know, sustainable living in the future. It is actually a really long view.

Karen: It is. And it's I mean, those are the those are the those are the districts that have mental health supports for kids and families who look at those systems. Um, and that matters. Um, people will often ask me, well, you know, what's the best school district for kids with trauma or kids with IEPs? And I will tell them very often, look at the bigger systems that are in place. Um, and they'll say, well, this district has got, you know, great schools says there are five out of five. And I'm like, good, good. That's great that they're five out of five. It also tells you where they're spending their time and their money and their energy. Um, and, you know, judgment that matters. Um. Mhm. But we are dealing with an entire school generation of children and staff that went through a collective trauma. Um, I recently, um, one of the districts in our, in Orange County had that even if El Toro Air Force Base. Right. And the hangar caught on fire. Hangar caught on fire. They put the fire out, but the air quality was so bad that they had to close schools for several days. This was in twenty twenty three. And the PTSD reaction from parents, from students, from from from educators about school is closed. And we don't know when it's going to open again because it dependent on this. Well, there while their prefrontal rational mind said yes, it's not the same thing. We have a definable measure. We know exactly what that taking it every day they're telling me what this is. The asbestos in the air is. And I know when I can go back to school. Their entire nervous system was it March of twenty twenty and hot mess. Like. Absolutely. The bottom's out. It was it was a really rough week, but it also showed really deeply how that impacts people's felt safety in the school system. Um, yeah. You know.

Renae: So and what I'm hearing a lot of in your stories, I'm hearing a lot of compassion and understanding to say it's, it, it's not that you as an advocate are going in as an adversary in these situations and saying, oh, these are bad teachers, bad administrators, bad districts. It is you saying, I recognize you have all of these different factors. And I also am going to hold a belief that you as a human being, um, have, have needs. And part of meeting the needs of this child again is meeting the needs of this system. And so I'm, I'm doing that with compassion. Um, I, I'm, I'm doing that with empathy and that, um, for the people who are around that table, what would you say is the most important quality for people to really bring to the table in these meetings that will make them a success?

Karen: I think it's really important for everyone, myself included, to go in with open minds, open hearts and open hands, um, to go in sort of ready to receive what the team has to say. Parents will say to me, what do you think they're going to say? I don't know, I can guess I've done enough of these now. I mean, I've done a gazillion and a half IEP meetings. Um, but I think it's really important that we assume good intentions and assume it until you tell me otherwise. Um, it doesn't take much for you to lose that with me. Um, and I'm a great person to say, look, I don't want to, I'm not here to fix the blame. I'm here to fix the problem. Um, but we need to look at what happened. Typically, I'm not called in until there's a problem. Like if people I joke with my with my parents that if I don't hear from you, I'm assuming everything's fine. Like, I'm not worried because you're going to call me when it's not. You don't call me to say I have one who does. She's amazing. She'll just send me these great pictures of her child doing amazing things. Um, but ninety nine point nine percent of my parents don't call me until there's a problem. So I'm already walking into that situation, but it's, hey, let's see what happened. Was it one mistake or is it a systemic failure? If it's one mistake that happens, you know, substitute teachers are a great thing. Like I can't substitute teacher does the best they can most days. I can't I can't make sure that if you have the most amazing teacher, nineteen days out of twenty on that twentieth day, the substitute teacher is going to look exactly the same. It's not a it's not a realistic expectation. Um, but I think it is being able to say, okay, how do we move forward? Sometimes that involves looking back and assessing damages. Sometimes it's just, okay, here's what happened. Let's figure out how not to have that happen again. Um, and how do we, how do we keep the student centered? I have, um, so my youngest has is fetal alcohol spectrum and got a little impulsivity that one does. And he, when he was in kindergarten, they had a play yard and it was just the kindergarten playground. They had tricycles. And so I get a call one afternoon from the school psychologist and the principal, which that's just they're never calling to tell you your kid had a great day. Like it's just not. I was like, oh dear. So my little guy was riding his tricycle as fast as he could into the fence. Clearly he had some sensory needs happening. So my granny told him several times, don't do that. Not faith. Don't do that. Not faith until she has to take the tricycle away from him because he continued to do it. So the, the, uh, psychologist, um, brought him in and he has what I put into almost all of my IEPs for my kids with developmental trauma he has in there that connect, connect, connect strategies will always be used. So clearly we need to have a conversation about the behavior because it was not fake. So Isaac starts off and says, you know, you know, we love you. There's a lot of people here who care deeply about you. We think you're a great kid. Here's all the things you do well. So really develop that, hey, we're on your side, buddy. And what you were doing was not safe. And you didn't stop when Miss Santos asked you. So we're going to need to not ride the train to go for the rest of the day. And before he could fall apart and let's figure out something fun. Let's figure out together something fun that you can do instead. So my son thinks about it and he goes, I know what I can do. It's like, great, what can you do? And he goes, I can get on the swings and swing as high and hard as fast as I can and jump off when it's at the highest point. Back to connection, to connection, to connection. But that kind of conversation, um, in that moment really affirms for him, for the five year old, these are safe people. I didn't just get the tricycle taken away. We did some collaborative problem solving. Yes, it probably took five or ten more minutes to run through that conversation with him, but it stuck with him. And we had a collective solution. And I think that's what people are needing, is those collective solutions of how do we do this? And it's hard. I mean, you know, I, a student with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, is a heart student because cause and effect has zero meaning to them. And see it, do it like that's and that happens in a nanosecond. So you do it, think it do it. You know, they could feel it say it. Um, you know, so just understanding that the other piece of that is as the adult and this is the other piece I write into this a little bit harder to get into some of those accommodations is adults will not engage with a power struggle with the student. Um, a lot of times we set our teachers up to feel like they have to win every conversation with a student that they have to be in charge in order to have good classroom management. So if a student says, if they say, let's do this, and the students are like, I don't want to do that right now, that students gonna dig their heels in. If I dig my heels in, game over. I mean, like, this is going nowhere but downhill. Um, and so not engaging with power struggles with a six year old who's dysregulated is really important. And it's really hard because some of us have a dysregulated six year old that lives inside of us, right? Um, and that and, and so you'll watch this as an outsider. Um, and I had another advocate call me about this. She said I was in an observation and I just watched it deteriorate. And literally, I felt like I was watching a forty year old body with a six year old mouth arguing with the six year old about it. And it would have been so easy at that moment in time for that teacher to say, you know what? I'm going to go over here and do some things for a few minutes. You continue to do and we'll come back to this. She's not giving in, you know. But we have such a fear as adults because of our own things we bring to our table about, um, ceding power.

Renae: Mhm. Mhm.

Karen: That, um, you know, we grew up in the adults are in charge and children are seen and not heard. And you will do what I tell you and, you know, did it work for us? I don't know. I don't know your feelings.

Renae: About that.

Karen: But, um.

Renae: And I think, I think that that piece of even even in that for any educators who are listening, there's not even a judgment about that. It's just saying this is the reality of the, this feels fearful to you Because you don't have what you need. You you haven't had that opportunity to find that felt safety in for yourself. And so that's why things like this summit and other resources, it becomes a way of how can we support you in your development so that you can be present in, in all the aspects of your life, not so that you are it's it's not about a classroom management. It is about, um, creating a culture of, of connection and safety where people can, where the students can show up as their amazing, awesome selves and participate in learning together. And, and that, that is not how we have been taught to do things, to teach, to, to, to create those, you know, doubts in the education system, whether it's in church, whether it's in the family world anywhere or in homes, even, you know. So this is just part of a cultural shift. And so, um, I really appreciate all of the wisdom that you've shared with us today for the summit and looking forward to continuing to work with TraumaWise in this space. And, um, and I really appreciate your, um, compassionate empathy for everyone involved. Um, and the way that you're, that you continue to talk about, you know, as an advocate, um, you get to be part of helping to set the culture as well. But it's really, it's a team effort. Um, and that we're not assigning blame or shame, we're just making sure that we're open and would you say open, open hearts, open.

Karen: Hearts, open minds and open hands.

Renae: Open hearts, open minds, open hands. Right. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Carrie.

Karen: You're welcome.