Setting Volunteers Up for Success: Trauma-Informed Leadership in Practice (with Wendy McMahan)

Renae: Well, Hi Wendy. We are so glad to welcome you here to the TraumaWise Ministry Summit. Our first one. Welcome.

Wendy: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

Renae: Absolutely. Well, I'm i I've known you for a long time and so I'm very familiar with who you are. But for those who don't know you yet, could you briefly introduce yourself?

Wendy: Sure, sure. Well, I introduce myself first by saying I am a child of God. And then I'm a wife and a mom and the mom to three beautiful daughters. And in my professional life. I'm the president at For The Children. For The Children is the national and international organization that runs Royal Family Kids Camp and Mentoring. So those are our two signature programs. And specifically what we do is we mobilize the local church to provide camp and mentoring to children who have experienced trauma. Usually that's children in foster care, or other children with system involvement.

Renae: Awesome. You did that so succinctly, I'm in awe, I'm in awe. So the reason that I was hoping that you would join us and we're so glad that you said yes to the invitation, is because I feel like the the work that you have has, intersects in so many different places and ministry and you have this really long ministry background, even though it's all been parachurch or faith based organizations or things that would be outside of what we think of as the, you know, typical ministry or church context and in that you have developed some some skills and some awareness around applying trauma informed practices. So I just for a moment would love to hear from you. When is the moment that you knew in your journey that something needed to change in the way that that you were applying rules, parenting practices, policies, procedures, whatever the thing happened to be? Yeah.

Wendy: Oh, wow. What a great question. I think it was not a moment for me but a process. I, I've gotten back and forth between international work and work with domestic foster care in the US. And one of the things that my international work really underscored for me was the importance of family, the importance of the local church and the importance of local leadership.

Wendy: And so that has really been my framework throughout my professional life to recognize that anything that I'm going to be involved with leading is not about me, it's not about the relationships even that I can have with the beneficiaries of work. It's really about empowering other people to serve. And, you know, ideally, that's happening through the local church. And when we do that, we, in my heart of hearts wanted to have the best impact in ministry. And along the way, I realized that there's a way to do things that can be more harmful than helpful. And then there's a way to do things that can truly help and be helpful to the volunteer or to the person, you know, doing the ministry or who's been enlisted in in the ministry work. And so for me, that was a process. Parenting, of course, enlightens everything, and through the process of parenting children who had experienced trauma through being foster parents, and then adoptive parents. My husband and I discovered trust based relational intervention. We discovered trauma informed care, we really became firm believers in the attachment cycle and attachment theory. And through that, I would say our worldview was shaped. It turns out that's been a biblical worldview all along. And we were able to put some more words in thinking to it with that framework.

Renae: Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And might I still resonate with so many of the things that you would that you said there, I would want to ask the question when you're talking about the different applications of trauma informed ministry and the fact that you've already identified that you've been working as an equipper of those who are supporting right. And in that preparation, orientation and inculturation of people who are going into these programs. Why is it so important to think about that trauma informed approach?

Wendy: Yeah. Well, I think the first thing that we think about when we're doing ministry is the impact that we want to have, right? And so we're thinking about that, that outcome and that outcome, hopefully is that the beneficiaries of what we're doing, are able to have the outcome that that we're shooting for. And as part of that process, we can get in the way of that. So that's that's the most rudimentary way to think a broader way and the way that I think that the Lord has increased my aperture on this, and partly that's been through you, Renae, and your work is to recognize that the ministry isn't just done by someone to someone, the ministry is. The ministry is symbiotic or reciprocal, where the person who's doing the serving often is receiving a great reward as well. Because of the relationship with the people that they're serving. And so we we would not do right by the people that we're serving, or by the people doing the ministry, if we aren't aware of trauma, and then if we don't take the steps that we would need in order to actually help people through that.

Renae: And what do you identify as, like the first best step because you just talked about steps. So what is the first best step in that process?

Wendy: Yeah. So as we think about, you know, what we would call volunteers in my ministry, we work with 10,000 volunteers every year through our Royal Family Kids Camp and Mentoring. Programs. I get to meet many of them when I go out to our local camps and our local mentoring clubs. But for the most part, I'm not the one working directly with them. So our structure if you let me elaborate a little on that is that we mobilize a local church and we have 200 of those churches. across the US. And then nine different countries also that have had begun to use our model. We recruit those churches and those churches then train up a group of volunteers. So you know, the framework that I'm working from, and I'm sure that anybody who's viewing is going to be able to translate this to their own framework, but mine is specifically working with volunteers who want to work with children who have experienced trauma. And in that, I really see that there are six steps or six parts of the process in managing those volunteers. So the first one is going to be what do you do for actually recruiting a volunteer?

Renae: And what gets in the way of that recruitment? When we're talking about people who've experienced trauma, what is a barrier that happens?

Wendy: Yeah, great question. So we know we know that. We know that there's a huge benefit to having volunteers work with children or to be in ministry with children or anyone, you know, broadening for the population. We know that there can be tremendous benefit to the beneficiaries as well as those who are serving. But the place where this can become troublesome is just as an example, if you're working with kids who have experienced trauma, we know that an estimated one in four adults have had experiences that will be categorized as abuse or neglect, when they were children. And you know, that number might be higher or lower, depending on who you read. But we also know that individuals who have experienced trauma are disproportionately likely to enlist themselves as social workers, other types of caregivers, people trying to intervene on behalf of trauma. I believe, you know, I don't have any studies about volunteers, but I believe that's true as well. Anecdotally, from our observations in our ministry, we'd say probably one in three of our volunteers has had some kind of childhood trauma themselves. And part of that can be a really positive response, where they are saying, this happened to me and I don't want it to happen to children, or I want to help children in that in that place. So that can be a very positive thing. But the place where it gets problematic is when that's unexamined, right? The unexamined life is not worth living. So Socrates and we want to be able to examine our own experiences, so that we can then enlist ourselves well in doing ministry work. Absolutely.

Renae: Well, I know in my work of talking about understanding ACES: adverse childhood experiences, and how to help communities, build structures of self healing, because that's super important relationship is incredibly important in that healing process. That is the different audiences that I've brought that information to in a lot of them we would ask people to go through the ACES questionnaire and then a resiliency questionnaire because I don't like to leave people just in the in the ouch part. But the we would ask people to not say which ones but if they wanted to share, to pass up a post it note or write the number on a piece of paper and pass up and we would see in the room, what the makeup of the demographics were for ACES. And, you know, going back to that, that first study, and we knew that, that there was 64% of the people who took the survey had one or more but it was 16% that had four more. And when you hit that four more mark, that is where you start to see some really significant behavioral and health outcomes across the board, in the places that I was asked to come talk about this were pretty much helping spaces. And across the board, the majority of people had four or more, sometimes up to 80% would have four or more in those spaces. Right.

Wendy: That can be a tremendous asset right? If you have someone with lived experience coming to help other people, that can be a wonderful thing. And and we also know that that those who might exploit or be predators of children may have had many of those experiences as well. They would have a disproportionate number of ACEs or other ways you might categorize traumatic experiences, and I would we absolutely want to safeguard against any predatory you know, proclivity for someone, but we recognize that the vast majority of those who are coming are doing it out of the best heart. But the way children get hurt is I believe, oftentimes not from someone who's really intending to do them harm. You know, many of the children that we cared for as foster parents, their parents just were parenting them the way they knew how the way they had been parented, or maybe they had even learned and done something a little bit better and but it was still not enough for the child to be safe. And we have to look at that and say, Okay, well how many of us come into a role or volunteer experience in an unexamined way? You know, I can speak for myself I did not have a childhood that I would categorize or these this survey, we categorize as traumatic in any way. And yet there are things that I came into as a parent, where I was presupposing things about the way you're supposed to raise kids that ultimately were not not helpful for my kids. So can we in our recruitment in our screening, can we talk through those things? And you know, as we talk about recruitment, we want to recruit in a way that is very honest about the experience.

Wendy: So I was in a volunteer management training years ago and this example has always stuck with me. The leader of this training had his break into two groups, and each of the groups was supposed to create a commercial and then present it to the class. The first group was presenting a commercial for a Carnival cruise ship. The second group was presenting a commercial for a warship. Now, none of us had any experience in cruisers, or warships, but I was in the cruise group and in the cruise group, we got up and said, it's going to be so fun. It's going to be a party, there's a pool, you know, all the great things about how fun this experience on this ship is going to be. And then the people from the warship got up and they said, this is going to be the hardest experience of your life. You're going to be in danger. You're going to have you know, some of the most difficult experiences and you might even die. But I tell you what, this is going to be tremendously satisfying and it's worth it. And then the leader says, Okay, which of those commercials which of those pitches are you giving when you recruit people for your ministry? Are you recruiting in a way that says this is going to be so fun, it's so rewarding, it's not that hard, or are you recruiting in a way that says this is going to be very difficult for you? It's going to require a lot of training. It's going to require a lot out of you. But it's also going to be the most one of the most meaningful things you've ever done, possibly.

Renae: And I think there's scripture that says, take up your cross and die. So it's not like there's not a biblical precedent, right? For this life.

Wendy: Yes, I read that one too. Yeah. And we know that Jesus' is burden is easy or is his yoke is easy, and His burden is light. Right? But it's still a yoke and it is still a burden and if you are unaware of that you're not going in the eyes open.

Renae: Yeah, well, I I wanted to ask about this. You touched on it before that, that screening process within the recruitment and and how can that be a trauma informed process?

Wendy: Yeah. So you know, a lot of times when we are asking for volunteers, the recruitment process, or rather the screening process is you said yes, great, let's get you going. But you don't want to miss that important piece of screening, which is really helping the volunteer and helping yourself to determine if this is the right next step. So of course, your level of screening is going to depend on the level of responsibility and the level of involvement that they're going to have with vulnerable people.

Wendy: So for us in our ministry, we have sustained contact with children. And you know, definitely if any of that contact is going to be very personal or one on one, you're going to want fingerprinting or background check and a personal interview. When you do that personal interview, you want to tailor those questions, the level of involvement that they have, but you also want to have a structure so that you're asking the generally the same questions of different people. And you want to do that, of course in a trauma informed way, in a way that you're, you're not presenting in a way of judgment, but in a way of understanding. So you want to ask about what have been some of your past experiences with children. Tell me about your own childhood experiences, ask how they handle stressful situations. Now, all of those things can be really enlightening.

Renae: Can you think of a time when and maybe I know that you talked about these churches with the teams that that do these camp experiences, where there's been stories or anything that might have been shared about best practices about that trauma informed way? I think that that's a, there can be such fear around the unknown, there can be fear around legalities, there's all kinds of fear that will that will stop us from maybe maybe hearing a full story or even from your own experience. Has there been any any ideas or thoughts around that?

Wendy: Yeah, well, I think first first, we're going to be prayerful in it right and, and asking God to be leading you to to what is most important here? I think sometimes just having that that intro before those questions are asked to ask permission to ask those questions. Of course, if permission isn't given, then that might be an answer in itself. But to let that person maintain that control of their own story, also to explain why you need this information or why you're asking for it. And then you know, be sensitive as well to who is doing that interview process. Many times you know, you do want a lot of people in the room, but there might be some questions that would be more appropriate just to be one on one. I also don't think it would be wrong to say we'd really love for you to talk to a therapist about this and then you know, encourage that the therapist to write a letter that they then can submit because the people that we serve really are worth that. You know, I think the our tendency not to do that our tendency not to screen really well our tendency to not want to ever say no. It really comes from recognizing there's so much to be done and there are so few people volunteering to serve, but we really want to dial it back and say who really is being called into this because they are truly equipped to be in this right now. We don't want to traumatize the beneficiaries of the work. But we also don't want to re-traumatize our volunteers.

Renae: Right. Right. And I am I think that that piece of making it okay to say it's okay if this isn't the right fit. This is not a rejection from community. This is not a rejection from involvement. And there are other ways that you can participate and support, is a big piece of it. I think that diffuses a lot of the fear around asking permission and and asking thoughtful questions is that we that it's, you're going to work to come to a win, you know the correct yes, the yes may not be working directly with the children. It may not be.

Wendy: That's so insightful and that idea that everybody can do something that's really important and it might not be to directly work with kids. In our ministry with Royal Family Kids Camp and Mentoring, there are so many different ways to serve. So we have the closest relationship is the counselor or mentor relationship where you're assigned to one or two children specifically, but there there's a whole spectrum of opportunities all the way over to somebody who just collects gifts for the birthday party day at camp, you know, and doesn't actually stand on the ground, but that the same children that the children do so I think if you want to serve there's a way for you to serve and then the training actually becomes a really important part of that screening as well.

Renae: Well, let's talk about the training.

Wendy: Sure! Let's talk about the training. Training is my favorite. So you want to make sure that anytime you're working with volunteers, they are trained for what they're going to be doing. And like I said, it really is also still part of your screening process. So throughout your training, that's the opportunity where you're interacting with those volunteers where you're seeing how they process information, or you're seeing if they show up for a particular training. So first, you want to make sure that you set realistic expectations and you can reinforce those in training. And then, you know, we love to train about the basics of trauma and the brain helping folks understand what does trauma do to a child and how does that play out for the rest of their lives potentially? You know, a really good resource just to mention for those who are taking notes that promise 686 is a great organization that we often partner with, they just came out with a 30 minute training series called a place to belong. So that's a really great one that's free for anybody to download and it's specific about how to work with trauma, and then we also want to train on self care for the volunteer themselves. So if you are feeling if you're feeling things well up inside of you when you are in the volunteer environment, what can you do? What what should happen? What are the pathways that we've created for you? And then that then leads into how we manage and lead our volunteers.

Renae: Well, let's talk about that. You're doing such a great job with the steps.

Wendy: Great. So, managing volunteers will be everything that you do while you're while you're leading a volunteer in ministry. And so something you want to think about in advance is who's going to be checking in with volunteers themselves? So one of the roles that we have at camp and in mentoring is called the Dean. It's kind of like a chaplain for the volunteer staff, but it's also somebody who, you know if if Renae is a counselor, and she is just I just see it on her face, she just really needs a break, even though her break time isn't till later, I would be able to step in as that Dean and say, you know what, Renae is going to go take a hot shower, and I'm going to be with the kids right now. So that's the Dean role. We also want to make sure that our volunteers are getting sufficient breaks and downtime. Do they have moments of reflection through the day? You know, I actually heard you say, Renae, that the best way to find out if you've got unresolved trauma is to have people with unresolved trauma move in with you. And that really resonated with me because that was definitely my situation. And it's the case for hundreds of our volunteers. Every year, who get into a situation and go, Oh, I had no idea how this was going to affect me. I had no idea. And so we actually have more adults than children in our programs. Our ratio is about 1.6 adults for every child, and that is so that we can really well care for both the adults and the kids. And then we just also want to ensure the safety of children by having some really special rules in place. So in our particular ministry, we never have one adult in the room. It's always two or more. Whenever there's children present, No one sits on laps, nobody sits on anybody else's bed. We don't give piggyback rides. So we've thought through in our context, what can we do to just really extra, be extra sure that we're keeping children safe, and then that's also protecting our volunteers.

Renae: Absolutely in that in in that safe and healthy touch is so important, especially for healing in especially in especially if there has been unsafe touch, right if there's been unsafe contact and so providing those new experiences of this is how healthy interaction occurs and repeating that can do healing without you ever talking about why we're doing what we're doing. Like what a great opportunity and then the modeling of rest. And sometimes when we have those Oh yeah, we're gonna have so much fun. We don't leave enough time for rest. And it stops being fun. I can think of times with my family, but we have been in places that should be fun and it wasn't anymore. But we didn't. We didn't plan for that. Right. We didn't create the margin and so having that I would imagine too, that sometimes people who are really good at organizing and and then, not thinking of the word starts, with an M. Mobilizing, organizing and mobilizing large, big event with lots of people with lots of moving parts with with safety structures in place. They are probably not the dean. There's they're probably very focused on that whole, like containing and safety and they're they're they're hyper vigilant and holding all of the details in mind and so they may not be that Dean person. So thinking about the even in the management of making sure that people are in the right roles.

Wendy: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, the selection of roles depending on your personality and what you what you are best at. Sometimes what you want to do is what you're best at and then you find the joy in what you are best at as somebody helps you. That's one of the beauties of volunteering, I think of so many times in my life when I've been able to sharpen skills that were giftedness that I already had, but maybe I wasn't doing professionally and then those you know, ultimately really built me up. You know, another really important piece of managing is debriefing. And so I didn't want to miss the opportunity to say please make sure you're always debriefing with your volunteers. You know if it's a Sunday morning they taught in Sunday school just check in with them after ask how it went. For us, we do a welcome home dinner at the end of camp where it's just the volunteers and everybody's crying and you know, it's just a total mess. And at that time, we're not asking them 'Do you want to come back next year' because they're not going to make a really informed decision. But we are telling stories, and then we do the same at the end of our mentoring year. But actually the resource that I have provided to TraumaWise for this summit is about debriefing. It's a very simple tool that just provides a number of cards with different emotions on them, and then it allows volunteers to go through and select an emotion that describes how they're feeling and then talk about it. That's beautiful. Because again, that's that becoming literate, becoming fluent in our emotional expression. And then that makes it easier for us to attune to other people and to create that felt safety because of that attunement. Right so like the difference between a person whose task oriented versus relationship oriented and there's times that we need to be in either of those. So it's not there's no harm or foul for anybody. But that relational piece of feeling resolved enough and I'm going to say resolved enough and attuned to our own state of being and mindfulness is what allows us to create that safe space for the person in front of us.

Wendy: Right, yes, that is so true. So through that debrief, we also get that opportunity to practice that attunement to each other. And it can also give you as a leader and you know, any flags that are people you really need to follow up with more you know, somebody's selecting the the angry tag, you know, like I definitely want to know what that's about or hopeless, you know, anything like that. Those are maybe prompts that would lead me to talk to somebody further.

Renae: Absolutely. Yeah, and burnout. Burnout is pervasive and in burnouts, okay. Like we'll talk about that during defense system. It's important to help you know, but in creating safety and the containers in when you're in leadership is also being aware of when people's actions and words are showing you that they have have reached the end of their capacity. And so what resources plans can we put in place? That's the proactive step have in a trauma informed approach. (Wendy: That's a beautiful way to put it.) Yes, thanks. So you've talked all the way through about the part you know the the goal is to create the right space in place for volunteers to be able to come and connect in a healthy way. And that all the way through their their check ins, there is reflection, there's safety valves for them, right, lots of lots of support. But I have to imagine that sometimes it's not the right fit, and you didn't know until further down the road. And so I'd love to hear what is that? That really, you know, heart centered, trauma informed way of helping people to know that they need not to be in that particular role?

Wendy: You know, this can be the hardenst one. And it, you are a ministry leader and you want to bring people along with you, and your see the best in people, and you want to be an optimist, and yet there are those times when it really is important to be able to release a volunteer. I don't like using the term fire a volunteer, but I want to be clear, when people talk about firing a volunteer, that's what this is, where we would say, you're no longer going to be appropirate in this role. And to have to communicate that, and you can imagine, that can feel like trauma for people. So, when we do that, just some basic ground rules, is to do it in as personal a way as possible, um, you know ideally that, I know I'm such an emailer I'd like to type it out and explain all the reasons and my logic, but the best way is to do it in person, if possible and in a way, just like we're trying to balance nurture and structure for children, we're providing, when we're upping the structure we're upping the nurture for adults. So as we up that structure and say you can't serve here anymore, we're also upping the nurture of how much we care about you and how much we value you. So some of the reason you might need to release a voluinteer: if there is consistent and intentional rule breaking that ends up putting people in danger, if there is ongoing conflict between volunteers that just doesn't seem to be resolved, those people might need to be serperated or you might determine that there is a particular volunteer that just isn't the right fit for being there. So I would like to underscore the difference between making the decision that someone can no longer serve, and informing

Renae: Absolutely. And and I just want to emphasize clear is kind

Wendy: Yes, clear is kind

Renae: Yeah, so much hurt comes when we're afraid to say things clearly. And if we're afraid to say things clearly like it is leaders. I think that's a great opportunity for us to do some self examination on Okay, is that just that it's not I don't know how to do it, or I'm sort of going to mess it up and and really reach into the wisdom of others and work on that reflection because the the kindest, most loving way is with clarity.

Wendy: That sounds good. Yeah. And succinct this as well. To be able to be concise in in what we say, rather than rambling on. You know, we will tend to fill up with words when we feel uncomfortable, and yet that might dilute what we're trying to say.

Renae: And so making that a very clear and kind message is valuable, and I think we have an opportunity to practice compassion. Togo into that conversation, anticipating there's there's going to be a grief and loss process that's going to be starting there. Yeah, right. And so whether the person already knows it's coming, because they're on they're out of alignment or they're unhappy. Or there's been things that have not gone well. They're already feeling some sort of disconnection to God to community to themselves. And so as we're stepping into that we're probably reflecting a truth that they already know but they have been struggling with and to be compassionate in it and to know there's a loss here, right. So whether there's a loss of control, whether there's a loss of a dream, whether there's a loss of a hope, whatever it is, there, there's gonna be a lot of hurt in that that has nothing to do with us creating that clarity, but to do with where that person is on their journey. And I think that can help to defuse maybe some of our nervousness if we're thinking I'm walking with someone who is going through something right now.

Wendy: Yeah, absolutely. That that sense of, how can I be the most help to them? And how can I how can I do this in the way that is kindness to their future as well? Where, you know, the way that they take it in the moment isn't going to be the way that they process it forever. And so, you know, so I look back at times in my life when I go, you know, in a particular experience where I, I received something and didn't want to receive it, you know, I didn't think that was true, but that upon reflection, well, they were exactly right. And I continue to learn those lessons and how grateful I am that those things were pointed out to me.

Renae: Yeah, it's a it's such a, you know, leadership is that, that servant leadership that we learned from Jesus is so poignant in this, right because that's the that's the model that we had with Jesus is that I was just talking to my youngest about she went to a sermon recently, and they were talking about that, you know, God takes your pain and that there's the trip to Jesus went to go see the Lazarus his body with the with the, with the family, and that, you know, Jesus asked the question and knew about it, and God wants to hear about our pain, but we need to give it to God. And I was like, hold up just a second. Can we go back to in between that question of Where's Lazarus? And then the accusation in the stone coming is there was there was grief and loss, and let Jesus knowing full well he was about to raise that person from the dead, entered into that grief and loss and walked with it. And like what a what a privilege we get to in that leadership role of creating that space for people.

Wendy: That's that's so I love that you pull that out from the story of Jesus and Lazarus, and it perfectly leads into my last point, which is the final step in this this cycle of volunteer management is raising up new leaders. I didn't mean raising up like Lazarus, but that's my own words. But the idea that we want to raise up leaders in our ministry, and oftentimes that happens with two criteria. Are you good at whatever you've been doing? And would you be willing to lead something? And I would like to propose that those might not be the best qualifiers for a leader you really want to recruit somebody to lead who gets along with their peers really well? Who can who you've seen lead in a trauma informed way and model all of these things that we're talking about, you know, the saying is we get promoted to our level of incompetence, and that is also true in the volunteer world. So it doesn't necessarily mean you're good at leading if you're good at serving. But you want to look for somebody who has a proclivity to disciple others who's a great mom role model, and of course, behaves in a trauma informed way.

Renae: Absolutely. And I think that I know this to be true about you, and I know that that this is an important piece of that we're like, there's no there's no perfection. It's all a practice, like we're all on this journey. And that that humility to stay open and hear the things that we might be missing. I mean, I know I know that for those who don't know, Wendy is is a is a wonderful co regulator for me. She is definitely good at helping me to to find some calm and some regulation when I might become a little dysregulated. And then we'll say I'm going to ask the question, right, I'm gonna ask the question, and I'm preparing you that I'm going to ask you this question that might be a little confrontational. Are you ready for it? And then asks me and then hold space for it. And I think that that, that gentleness of saying I'm fully aware of all of the amazing things about you and what you've done, and all those types of things, but nobody is finished. No one is perfect, and that, that it is in that loving and kind approach that allows for me to say I'm actually not open for it right now. And it's okay. Right for the to have those types of relationships and in modeling that as adults, helps us to be able to, whether we're serving children or other adults in the world, we get this that that builds that muscle and it spreads out

Wendy: Absolutely. And it's my privilege to be your co regulator, to be your friend and a ministry partner. And I just love this conversation, because it's the kind of stuff we don't tend to think about a lot in the way that we manage volunteers. And I think that's a great example. You know, your example of how we do this with each other. Look at how we've grown through doing ministry, right, and what a great privilege we have to lead volunteers in their own growth

Renae: in these ways. It's really beautiful. Absolutely. Well, Wendy, I'm so grateful for your time and your investment and all of the wisdom and the lived experience and hope that you've brought our community here. Thank you for your openness, and your willingness and just being for being you pretty darn awesome.

Wendy: Oh, thank you. It's my privilege and I'm so glad to be part of the summit and excited to hear everybody else's presentations too.

Renae: Awesome, thank you. Thank you