Becoming Is Messy: Healing Perfectionism and Building Safe Connection (with Meghann Dawson)

Renae: Well, hello, Meghann, and welcome to the TraumaWise podcast.

Meghann: Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here, Renae.

Renae: I'm actually super thrilled that you're here. And part of that comes from, um, the work that we got to do before the TraumaWise summit, but also an initial conversation that you and I had that helped me to, um, for in that moment, I, I really felt this awareness that there is someone else who has knowledge, who has lived experience of some of the things that I have lived through, who is has found a way to thrive, who has found a way to make something really beautiful out of it. And it was just very inspiring for me. So I'm super excited to have you here. And, um, for those who haven't met you, could you introduce yourself?

Meghann: Of course. But first, let me thank you for that nice introduction. Uh. Your words. I could feel them in my whole body. It just resonated strongly. Um, I think that those of us maybe makes me feel a little teary. I don't know, maybe end of year just, you know, kind of feeling proud of where we've gotten in our lives with our chronic trauma backgrounds. But, you know, I, too, find that those of us that have walked this trauma path, when we meet other people that give language to what we know in our internal world to be true, there's just something about seeing somebody else reflect back what you've experienced that I just find so, so powerful and why I love having conversations like this. And so a little bit about me, um, yep. I'm a chronic trauma background. Um, right out of the gate. I was born and caught infection in the hospital that wreaked havoc on my little body and led to a lifetime of chronic pain and surgeries that are still piling up today. I also was raised in a home where I was the oldest child, the only daughter, and my father was a verbally abusive alcoholic. Uh, so I was very much the protector of my household. At least that was the title I took on myself. Uh, as young as six years old. I can remember feeling that, um, and then that led me to coping mechanisms and survival skills across my youth, uh, and teen years and early adulthood, which was perfectionism, um, alcoholism to numb the pain, um, promiscuity, bad relationships with men. And, you know, all of the the things that kind of come in the face of damage to self-worth when we're little. Um, and then that led also my perfectionism led to a really strong career. So, you know, um, many of us can relate to that high functioning side of us where it feels like we're two different people. And that very much my whole life there was me that was the straight-A student. There was me that was getting drunk in sixth grade. There was the me in the world that had a career climbing the corporate ladder. There was me behind the scenes that was, you know, um, destroying my life. And so in the career side, I ended up having an over twenty year career in the credit union industry, coaching other people, putting together professional development programs, uh, supporting strategic partnerships. But my degree was in psychology, and that really always sad at the heart of what I wanted to be doing with my time. And last year was kind of that big nudge from the universe. I always pictured this very like, um, you know, safe and perfectly boxed in transition plan when I do early retirement at sixty and then I get to live my coaching dream. And unfortunately, the universe was like, nope, you are going to do it now in the middle of your kids all starting college when you really need that corporate paycheck. You know, I'm going to make it. So you're very clear that it's time to do it now. And so, uh, last year, I walked away from my corporate role and launched a coaching practice, launched my own podcast, Becoming as Messy, and am now committed to helping people at the crossroads in their life when they feel like they've lost their or never had really an understanding of their true self. Um, have have self-worth issues and really help them with the path to self-love that I think is the differentiator that our world really needs right now.

Renae: Beautiful, beautiful. And so for those who are listening, you hear this, this really rich journey that in a lot of a lot of, um, my favorite stories, they don't necessarily make sense on paper, like the transitions are not, uh, are not, you know, like you said, it's not a clean cut. It doesn't fit into a box. It's not nice and and neat, which is, you know, hence the becoming is messy. It is a messy transition because the journey leading up to that transition has been messy. Yes. And I think telling the truth about that is part of what is is terrifying and also incredibly healing. And so when did when was the moment that you felt that you started to be able to share some of that messiness? Where I hear before there was this, these, this two sides where you had to hide, you had to hide what was going on. And when did you get to start telling the truth about you?

Meghann: Um, such a great question. And for me, it really is my first step towards healing, which also translates to the very first step of my framework, which is let your inner voice lead. And for me, that happened as a as a new mom. My daughter Mara is now seventeen, just starting to get her college acceptance letters. So when she was a newborn baby and I was in the nursery, nursing her late at night was the first time I ever got that inner knowing nudge that was distinguishable from for my inner critic. Growing up, my inner critic had just drowned out. I didn't know what my deepest knowing felt like, but here I was, you know, overwhelmed with love for my daughter. And this little voice inside me just said, do better or you're going to give her the same wounds. And, um, that for me, I did. I didn't necessarily know what to do with that, but I knew it to be true. I knew that my life was a shit show. I was miserable in my marriage. I married somebody very similar to my dad. Who? A man who drank too much, was verbally abusive to me, kept me small, uh, which felt safe for a while. That's what I was familiar with growing up. But now that I had this little girl, I couldn't stand by and let her see her mom be treated like that. Um, and so I think my love story for coming back to myself was sparked by my love for my daughter. Um, and then to answer your question about speaking the truth, that would take a little more time. So that little nudge for me put me on this path towards, uh, which is essentially my framework and that. So really the steps that came from that for me were knowing that I needed to, um, get a therapist to look at my childhood. I knew that my childhood wounds, um, were so bad that I needed help working through those. And so I went to a therapist, so I had her to open up to, um. I also, uh, started valuing the lessons, even the messy ones. Even then, I was still spiraling out of control. I was still drinking too much on the road. I was still having inappropriate relationships with men, even though I was married. And I started really confronting them and seeing the lessons that were to come from that. Look at my why? Not necessarily woe is me and victim blame myself, but instead look for the patterns. Um, and in doing so, that led me on a path to finally start opening up to my closest friends. And that's something I recommend, you know, to people all the time, eventually finding at least one friend or one loved one, one safe person that you know is going to hold space for you and not judge you. Um, and so when I opened up to that first friend, I really thought that that person was going to shun me, you know, run away. Think I was as bad of a person as I always thought myself to be? And the opposite happened. She actually opened up and told me her messy stories, and she felt liberated to do that. And we both learned, wow, like this is freeing. And it brought us closer together. And so I told another person and then another person. And now, you know, eight years later, here I am on podcasts. No secrets, no topic off limits. Um, and it's just been very freeing in helping me heal. And it also helps me own my whole story, not just parts of it. All of the stories of my background contributed to who I am and what my purpose is.

Renae: Beautiful. And I, I, um, that that truth of finding your your safe people. Um, in my in my space. I call them my anchors that are who, you know. I can just be who I am and there's no fear. And the the for me, the opposite of I can either live in a in a space of love or a space of fear. I can't do both at the same time. I'm not. I personally am not able to do that. I don't know people who are, but, um, I know that I can't either. And and so in my relationships, if there is a tinge of fear, I, I'm not able to show up as who I am. And I know that for me, a lot of that came from my own, um, history of being told. I mean, it was literally spoken over me. You better get small quick.

Meghann: Mhm. Yes.

Renae: Right. Yeah. That like you like the invalidation of a human being to say who you are. All of you is not welcome here.

Meghann: Yes.

Renae: Right.

Meghann: It's.

Renae: And so to have those spaces I think that's one of the ways when people say, you know I have, I have people in my life that I know are struggling. Um, and I want to help them. I don't know how that this the, the trauma informed approach to being a friend of someone who has some messiness going on is to really, um, Create that non-judgmental space and say, I'm here for you no matter what.

Meghann: Yes, yes. And that and that is that is the role that I have taken because I've seen how healing it is to me. You know, I pride myself in the number of people that say to me, you know, you're the person I'm going to call if, you know, I do some of the worst things, you know, and, um, and it doesn't mean that I'm condoning or justifying. I just it's just it's just not my place. I don't I'm not walking their shoes. And, you know, we all, all of our stories have nuance to them that only we understand. And, you know, there's plenty of critics out there that are going to judge people. And I'm just going to hold space and let you kind of unload and share and just listen. I don't need to have an opinion and perspective on your life. Yeah. That's not what you. That's not what you need for me. And so I think it's so powerful to show up like that for the people in your life that you love. Um, and for me, I always say to my husband, I feel honored of the types of things that people can find in me. Um, because I could feel it just unburdening them. And I think that's one of my life's purpose, is to be a safe place for people to just be themselves.

Renae: Absolutely. And that's at the core of of everything that I do as well. Right. Is that it? Both with both of my, um, initiatives, organizations, whatever. Uh, it really is for creating environments where people get to show up as their full and authentic selves and to express that. And there's, um, um, I can't remember her name at the moment, but her podcast is called therapy in a nutshell. And this year she started talking about a little bit of the that she's thinking of the opposite of of expression is depression, and that when we think about when people have depressive symptoms, when they're feeling depressed, it's because there's this repression that they're not able to express themselves. And so it gets expressed in different ways internally. Um, and so I'd love to hear a little bit for you about when, when, um, and again with without judgment, uh, for the, the things that you named that were part of your advanced coping strategies. Yeah. Um, when were you able to to say, oh, I'm ready to make a change. What was that turning point for you?

Meghann: Yeah. You know, I mean, so the moment with my daughter was one of those turning points. So I feel like there were a few for me across that path, you know? And it's funny because from that call, the path I walked to healing actually got a little messier at first. I, um, I started realizing that when I'd be out on the road, I felt alive. So I would travel for work. And, you know, I dreaded going home. I dreaded it's like I was so torn because as much as I wanted to be with my daughter, I that my home just felt so awful to me. And I started realizing that in this broader world that I felt alive. I felt me, I felt valued. And through the value from other people is when I started, literally started valuing myself. And part of that was the connections to men. So I feel like, you know, for me, a theme in my life is craving to be loved. You know, I mean, I have a deep father wound and, um, and so I sort that out, and I settled for scraps my whole life, um, up until this time period. And part of that was falling in love with a married man. And through that relationship, he had been a friend for years first, and through him he I was the first person I ever felt really seen by. It was the first person who I felt myself fully. He knew all my stories and still, you know, in my mind, I felt like he loved me. And for me, looking back, that was also a huge turning point. And realizing in the aftermath and how heartbroken I was because I, you know, that first, for people that can relate to the very first person that you feel seen by, especially if you've had a lifetime of trauma. Um, it is cataclysmic. I mean, it is it is the most powerful feeling that I had ever had. And so for me, it was, you know, we're soulmates, we're twin flames. We're, you know, this is something huge, you know? Um, but so in the aftermath. So here I was heartbroken. And then also having to go through a divorce. You know, it was just like, oh, it was terrible. Um, however, looking back, I realize it wasn't that individual. That was my turning point. It was the feelings I got from that that I couldn't unknow, you know? So that's why I say value the messy one. Value the lessons, the mess, even the messy ones. Because even the messiest lessons teach us something. And if I could learn from that, and what I learned from that, I couldn't unlearn. I learned that I was worthy, that that was my. I was never again going to settle for scraps. And, um, that to me was huge. And so do I condone messy behavior. And I don't condone hurting people. I don't I don't believe we should proactively try to. However, we're not going to get out of life without hurting some people. Um, and oftentimes it's our self. And so for me, it's just a part of my Transformation, and I was able to learn from that. And it was part of me learning to love myself.

Renae: And what I hear. And there is a really strong repair message in that. You're you're going to make mistakes, you're going to screw up. You're going to you can't move in this world without bumping into things and damaging and making an impact. And sometimes that impact is going to be, um, bear. Bear very good fruit. That'll that'll be wonderful. And we also live in a physical world where there is no, um, growth or healing without there being death and destruction.

Meghann: Exactly. That is so true. You know, I think another thought I've had a lot lately is I just the more I have kind of a soul evolution, like, I mean, I very much have grown into a very spiritual person as I was on the path that we're talking about. So, you know, after value the lessons, the messy ones. The next step in my framework is to embrace the magic of the universe. And so as you walk these competencies to me, in my experience, the universe has started showing it to me. You know, it's like my internal alignment started triggering this external experience and it just blew my mind. You know, seeing signs everywhere on the radio. Phrases that were repeating themselves. My number three, three, three, you know, just started showing up everywhere. So I started absorbing anything I could find on spirituality, law of attraction, synchronicity. Um, for listeners, if you're looking for resources, for me, Celestene prophecy was a huge shift for me in learning my own spiritual path. And so for me now, after all these years walking this path, I continue to evolve my soul path and I keep leveling up. I actually just went through like a vibration shift in like the last month. That has been insane. Like, it's just I'm at this level now. That is all brand new to me of ease and synchronicity. All of those things are kind of expedited in the season, and that's coming from my healing. And one of the lessons I've learned is that sometimes our physical constraints are physical. The things that we've agreed upon in our day to day physical world, such as marriage, such as a marriage contract, um, or potentially such as employment at a company. You know, sometimes our soul path walks us into things that don't necessarily fit into those beautifully. And so to me, those are the messiest things for me, are when my soul is pointing me to something, or my soul keeps bringing something in for me to learn that's butting up against those things, and I've just made peace with it. Again, it's not like I'm trying to seek that out. It's just when I look back at my story, I can very much see the things my soul needed, and I don't have any regrets or apologies over those.

Renae: I would love to hear what what was when you. Um. I'm going to back up. Yeah. Um, you know, when we when a lot of what we talk about in TraumaWise, uh, when we're going through, you know, the, the felt safety connection and co-regulation is the, the to develop neural pathways of understanding requires us to have experiences, repeated experiences. Um, and so when this is why telling someone you love them doesn't wait until that has meaning. They that the experience of being loved is required for those words to have any meaning. Yes. And so you had described the, the experiences of um, even with that first big relationship where you felt seen and heard and valued and loved, and that it eventually became an understanding that you had of yourself, of your, of your worth, um, when would what would how would you describe that moment that you didn't need to have that reflected to you in the same way, because it was so resonant in yourself?

Meghann: Yes. Oh, that was such a good question. I love that again. Goosebumps. I'm telling you, I'm getting so many goosebumps this week. Uh, the universe is so fun. Um, yeah. So I, you know, um, before that, before I fell in love, you know? And that was the biggest moment. But before that, I had started having men come up to me regularly saying, you know, I think we have a connection, right? And now and at the time, my girlfriend and I, I was married, you know, I was married, I had a newborn at home, you know, and here I am on the road regularly. No matter what I was doing, I'd have people calling my hotel. I'd have, you know, it just constantly. Every work trip I went on, somebody said, we have a connection, you know, and, um, my friends are like, gosh, are you just, like, sprinkling pixie dust out there? Like, what is happening? Looking back, I can very much see that, that I had like a big open sign, you know, I was just energetically craving. Love me, love me. I'm not. I'm lacking, you know. And so for a while, I thought I could just have this double life. Uh, you know, my ex husband, I had, I had tried to divorce him, and he said, no. He said, I don't care if you're happy, this is best for our family and you're not going to destroy us. And so. No. And so, you know, I believed him. I, for some reason thought he had to give us permission. So I was like, you know, maybe I'll just have this double life. So I started just, like, making out with people and spiraling. And then I fell in love, like. And then I it's like, oh, shit. I guess the double life isn't going to work, you know? And, um, my friend who I had fallen in love with, you know, that was a few month thing. Um, and he ended it, and he decided to stay married. And here I was, wanting to get divorced, but I didn't have the courage yet. I just to your point, I hadn't. I had an actualized the feelings yet. It's like I still thought they were from somebody else. And so I settled back in and I tried counseling with my ex-husband, and we started going through that for a whole year. And then I had another kind of huge experience with a man at this time. I was at a conference and, um, he basically said to me over the week, hey, I'm getting married in two weeks. And when you walked in today, I had a feeling like I've never had. And I don't know what that means. And so we we talked through that. We hung out. We didn't have an affair. But that was what it took for me to realize this lesson's not going away like this. I'm going to keep getting people teaching me this until I address it. And so that I went home, I filed for divorce. Um, and then through therapy, um, I worked with my therapist to realize that my pattern with men, I mean, I had come from my father wound and we worked through. And essentially I was dying. He essentially said to me, you sound like somebody that just likes when people like you, you know, if you have a good looking person, they like you, you know, you're gonna that's going to be this blow up. Um, you need to get to a point where you decide you have a list. You don't I don't care how hot this person is, you know? And so through him, um, I really came up my with my non-negotiable list. I'd stop dating for a while. I was single, I was still healing myself, and I started embodying all the things that those people had made me feel on my own. And, um, and that was a really cool experience. Um, I'll tell you one other quick story about that time. Um, my girlfriend and I were in similar places, newly divorced, you know, didn't want to show dating, uh, life. And so we were focused on ourselves, and we came up with this initiative that was based on a period in her life she was most happy with a guy who had the best name ever, and it was Oliver Stormer. And so we created something called the Stormer Initiative. And the Stormer Initiative was us coming up with a list ourselves of the times that we felt most alive, you know? And so what that list included was actually getting ready and putting a little makeup on, you know, going out, dancing, um, taking care of our health, eating healthy. But then my favorite one was I love the way a man smells. And so I went out and I bought male Cologne and I'm just like, screw it, I'm just going to wear it myself. And I will tell you, those months were such a healing, a healing thing to be able to create my own aliveness. I feel like that was kind of the final secret sauce. And then like within months, I ended up, um, finding my husband now, finding my person in a very healthy way. So that was my path.

Renae: I love that that Stormer initiative. That.

Meghann: Yes. Isn't that great?

Renae: Oh that's great, I it's the giving yourself the experiences. Right. So that you recognize that it is not something that that has to be done. Um, you're not dependent, um, on people to, to create that reality for you. That being said, I, I will I believe in interdependence, not independence.

Meghann: Yeah. Oh, definitely.

Renae: That we right that we that we actually. Yes, we do need human beings.

Meghann: Yes.

Renae: And part of us showing up healthy for ourselves and others is to be aware of our autonomy and that we we can we can meet our a big chunk of our own needs, um, as adults, not as children. Children need to have their needs met by loving caregivers. Yes, consistent, loving, caring caregivers. This is not about kids.

Meghann: This is for adults. I just want to be very clear. And as and as adults, we can do it. But those of us that didn't have it as kids, we do need to learn it. And we don't need to punish ourselves when we don't know it yet. You know, it's it's I think that's part of this is there's no specific timeline. There's no you don't have to do all these things right away. It's just it's just baby steps and start recognizing if you're spiraling, if you're feeling miserable, if you're perpetuating the same cycles of hurt that you've been doing your whole life or that have been done to you, just know there are steps you can take to start taking that back, and you're not predestined to a lifetime of that same cycle. You can break it. There's ways to do that. And the last thing I would add for this is, you know, I, um, I did end up with a great man eventually, you know, not not to say I had to kind of, but to your point with interdependence, I did want healthy love eventually. That was I wanted that for my daughter. I wanted to model that. And, um, it took me, though, getting to all of these steps, doing the Stormer initiative, um, and then even mine and his partnership. We've learned he's also on life two point oh, and we very much didn't promise forever. We promised each brand new day. And we also very much agree that the most important thing for he and I is supporting the other's growth journey. And so if our soul growth takes us in different directions, then so be it. But we're going to support each other, evolving how we need to evolve so that autonomy really does remain a very strong part of the strength of our relationship.

Renae: Yeah, the way that we make a choice to be in relationship, and I think that that's, um, I was reflecting on a business relationship, um, that that seemed to go sideways, but was actually part of my own transition out of a corporate setting into this entrepreneurship. And in the conversation, um, I was having with one of the executive team, um, on the phone, I said the words, I, I don't need you and, um, I, I unfortunately for him, because of his history, Um, it actually was really wounding, um, because of his own, um, history with his caregiver. And and that was I'm sad that I hurt him by saying that, um, and what I did not what I should have said is I am choosing to be in this relationship. This is not a this is not a dependency or codependency. I am choosing to be here. I'm choosing to partner with you. Um, um, and that was that was what I meant to say. Yeah. And I don't need to, but it came out. I don't need you. Yeah. Um, so it was a good lesson for me to to to take a breath before I create some of those, those boundaries for myself and others to think about. Um, I want to communicate really clearly what's happening here, um, so that you understand that it's actually me. It's a positive thing. I'm choosing to be here. I am choosing this relationship.

Meghann: Yes, yes, I love I love the idea of of really solidifying. I'm choosing this, you know, because I, you know, at least, um, and I have a similar, you know, dynamic with, with work relationships now with friendships, you know, that, um, there's nobody that I need either, like, my husband and I very much are on the same page that we would be okay without each other. And that doesn't mean we won't be sad. That doesn't mean you know that our life would be as rich. I mean, there's plenty of things, you know, but we would be okay. However, he is who I'm choosing to do life with, you know? And and and he's choosing me to be his partner in life. And there is, you know, something that's really sacred about that. And how powerful that it wasn't this predestined thing that I could just easily walk away from. We're choosing each other to build a life with our kids together. So there's something really special about that.

Renae: Yeah, well, I'd love to ask a question. And you said nothing's off the table, so, um. Ah, I don't know if you're, um, your father is still alive, but, um. I'd love to, um. Here. How how are you in relationship with him? Were you able to maintain relationship?

Meghann: Well, this is another curveball in my story. Um, that, um, so when I was thirty nine. I'm forty six now. So when I was so seven years ago, um, I actually found out that my dad that raised me was not my biological dad. I actually, I was, um, I discovered on Ancestry.com when looking at parentage, um, I discovered that I had a different dad and four additional siblings. So that was another, um, thing. It was actually a turning point that, um, shaped my belief in my own level up framework because I thought it was like I complete those steps, I had been healed and life would be smooth sailing from there. And then I had another big trauma, and that kind of set me right back to the beginning on those steps. Um, and um, I at the time, I had been estranged from the dad who raised me. I, um, I decided to do so when my daughter was about four years old, and, um, and she had started being old enough to see him drinking too much, yelling at my mom. And we were on a family vacation. And that had been kind of the theme, you know, of my whole life. But as I watched her getting older, I just I didn't want that in her life. And so I, you know, set the boundary. And so at the time, him and I, um, would just message on Facebook from time to time, he was kind of blocked everywhere else. And he sent me birthday cards and, uh, and her birthday and Christmas cards, but I hadn't seen him in years. Um, and then a few years ago now, I believe three years ago he did pass away. Um, and so, you know, for those listening who have those kind of estrangements, you know, um, for me, that was always my biggest fear, you know, for. So, like, am I doing the right thing? You know, am I should I have him in my life? Am I going to regret it? You know, when he passes away and very much, um, it's kind of given me peace, to be honest. Like, it's it's kind of now that it's happened and I grieved him, I it I did have not regrets. I had sadness because he died alone and in a kind of tragic way. Um, however, it brings me peace. There's an author. I'm going to forget his name right now. He's a rabbi that talks so beautifully about grief. Um, in the face of dying. Um. And he talks a lot about how we die, how we live, we die, how we live. And so what that looks like for my dad is, you know, he was a he was a mean alcoholic. Even when he was dry for many years, he still was not the nicest person. He probably had levels of mental illness that had never been diagnosed. So I have a empathy for him, you know. However, he never took accountability for his own healing or how he treated people. And so he died alone, which mirrored how he lived. And so I can have sadness for that, yet not have regret over the fact that we never mended anything. Because I know in my heart it just wasn't possible for him and I to have had a mature, loving relationship.

Renae: Yeah. And that part is, um, that that part of complex trauma. Cptsd, um, these deep wounds is really. It is really tricky. And there's a awful lot in, um, some of the psychological Writing about estrangement and this this idea from some people that, you know, there's this there's this chronic estrangement that's happening, that all these, these Gen Xers are walking away from their parents and, and that's that is unfortunately part of of my story. Um, is that I, I couldn't find a way to be in a healthy relationship. And I'd done so much healing that I couldn't unsee how it was hurting me terribly. It was hurting me terribly. And I remember getting off the phone. A phone call with, um, with with family members. And I could feel the flood of cortisol going across my scalp. And I paused and I said, that should never happen. Yeah, we should never be on a phone call with loved ones and have cortisol Going across our scalp because we're having such a trauma response. Yes. Something's not right here. And I've been ignoring my body for so long to try to be the good daughter.

Meghann: Yeah, right. Yeah.

Meghann: And you shouldn't have to go against who you are for anybody. I so believe that our biggest responsibility in life is to our what's best for our soul. Um. And if we each do that, then, you know, we're in a very healthy place. And I have such a large, chosen family. You know, the people in my life that aren't maybe blood related, um, and who, you know, lift my soul up in so many ways. I will say with my dad, too. For me, I did eventually tell him I forgave him, and I freed myself of any burden of of anger. I really, um, have sadness for my dad. You know, I feel like his life to me sounds very sad. I wished he could have healed himself. Um, and so I eventually was very nice to him. You know, if he reached out, I would message him back eventually, and I would wish him well. I even said to him, I always send you love from afar. I feel like love from afar is a big one for me. You know, I wish, I wish a decent amount of people love from afar. And I just have come to realize that just not everybody can be in my day to day. It doesn't mean I wish them ill will or hold all this angst against them. You know, I I've forgiven and I know he did the best he could. Um, and it's it's kind of sad.

Renae: Yeah. And and the forgiveness piece. Um, when I talk to people about that a lot, um, because it comes up in grief and loss and it comes up in healing and that, um, to be clear, um, from my point of view, this is Renae speaking.

Meghann: Yeah.

Renae: That we forgiveness, um, is expressed to other people when they've shown that they want to have forgiveness.

Meghann: Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

Renae: They do that when they show some level of remorse or some level of, um. I'm sorry, something. Yeah. Um, otherwise, the forgiveness is expressed to yourself because it's part of your relationship with yourself. And if you're in relationship with a higher power, that's part of your your thing, too.

Meghann: Yes.

Renae: Um, that it's part of you aligning and and not being, um, burdened by this misalignment of relationship where you're the, the, the harm continues to happen because it has a hold on you.

Meghann: Yes, that's what it is. It's releasing that hold. I think that is what I was motivated by, you know, and for me, my my example with my dad was, um, just recognition that he wasn't capable of ever really acknowledging, I think, that he probably had the mental capacity of a child. I think that, you know, he's I while I have a degree in psychology, he's never been fully diagnosed specifically, but I just kind of recognized his limitations and just extended, I guess, a little bit of just empathy, just so I didn't carry the burden. It very much was for me, not for him. I just needed to make peace with it. And to do that, I just offered him kindness, um, was where I felt, um. And then at the end, when I found out he was sick, I kind of decided that I was going to go out and be with him because I didn't want him to be alone when he passed away. Um, and he passed away the same night I found out he was sick. So it's like, you know, it's just the universe or I think just kind of maybe protected me. I think our story had come to its end. Um, and I'm glad that for my own heart, I made peace with it in my own way.

Renae: Yeah, absolutely. That compassion is really important. It's part of our that healing journey, um, that there's a a roadmap to healing from my friend Cindy Lee. And, um, in that when we get ready for that healing journey, we have to go through grief and loss process, and we need to tell the full truth of what happened and let go with compassion. And those are the steps that that we have to go through before we start that healing journey. That's the the kind of the baseline that lets us have a journey that includes healing. And I appreciate that. You talked about how, um, it's even that is messy, that you can go through all the steps and you're going to come back to it, because every level of new knowing and new understanding and new experiences gives you an opportunity to, to move into some deeper healing. Yes. And so what would you if somebody is listening in and resonating with some of your story or is is is ready to consider moving through these, these steps. Um, how how can they learn more about what you're doing and, and step into that?

Meghann: Yeah. So a great.

Meghann: Way to learn about it is through my podcast, Becoming as Messy. Becoming as messy is hosted on most platforms. And, um, right now it's just an audio podcast launching on YouTube soon as well. But for now, just audio and the first eight episodes are walking through the framework. And so it's a great free resource where I dig into why the framework and what each of those steps. I've kind of alluded to. Some of them, um, Level Up is a acronym. And so, um, we go through all of those competencies. I have the word imperfect in front of it because it is not a linear. It's not necessarily a one and done. It's a it's competency. So they are seven skills to really beef up for yourself. So when curveballs come in, you have built up your ability to be resilient and still love yourself and not let those curveballs just flatten you and bring you right back into somebody that's in kind of that self-sabotage spiral.

Renae: Beautiful. Thank you.

Meghann: You're welcome.

Renae: And so, Meghann, what would if if, um, you could go back and speak to yourself as you were holding your daughter and experiencing this wash of love and knowing what was about to come? I know you don't want to change what happened in your story because it's important for how you got there. But what is one thing that you would want her to know and hold on to, that she could use as an anchor for the journey that was about to come?

Meghann: Yeah. I mean.

Meghann: In that moment, um, I wish I could have just expedited and known in that moment that the love I felt for my daughter was the same love I was worthy of. I mean, it took me a messy life, a messy path, lots of hurt and hurt to other people for me to finally realize that I just needed to love myself. Um, and I wish that the love I felt for her could have just given me that in that moment, without me having to walk that messy path.

Meghann: Yeah.

Renae: Yeah. Um, thank you for sharing that. And I think that's incredibly Poignant and important. And so for for those who are listening. Um, I want to reflect to you this. I don't know, you maybe. I mean, I might know some of you, but, um. And Meghann and I are here to tell you that, um, you, in fact, are worthy of that love as well. And that there if there is a part of you that when you're getting a different message that deep down inside you can feel pushing back and saying, that's not true about me, that's not true about me, I am, I am wonderful, I am beautiful, I am smart, I am worthy. That's the true voice. Yes. Not the other messages.

Meghann: Yes.

Meghann: That is so true. You know, I heard somebody shared recently that when your inner voice is talking to you, it's a definitive period. You are worthy. When it's anxiety or your inner critic, it's a question mark. You know, am I not good enough? Am I too small? Am I lazy, am I? You know, and so it's like, just really let go of those. And that definitive knowing is just just keep on. If you could do anything to start, start loving yourself. Just start finding that little voice. Go take long showers, go on walks, find stillness, meditate for just a couple minutes in the morning. You know, do whatever you need to to get to stillness so you can just start getting to know your inner voice, and it's going to walk you on a path just like this. It's that's one thing I've learned from doing podcasts is so many of us on healing journeys, you know, have essentially the same steps that come eventually if we allow it. If we have openness, we just name it something different. We call this step something different. We have our own language, you know, but if you stay open, this journey is going to unfold for you and you're going to walk back to yourself.

Meghann: Beautiful.

Renae: Well, I want to thank you so much, Meghann, for sharing of your story of your time. Um, of of your hope, um, of your encouragement, all of those things. Thank you for coming in and sharing that today.

Meghann: Thank you for having me, Renae. And thank you for this community. I can't say enough about this community and how much you honor lived experience. I feel like for so many of us, um, we haven't always had that. Um, and to have a community that honors that and recognizes we don't have to all seek answers outside of ourselves. Our body holds a lot of wisdom, and I love a place where we can share that. So thank you for having me.

Renae: Awesome. Thank you.